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If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?


  • Total voters
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wrong. spending more now means that you have a higher baseline in the future. each dollar extra that you spend now is a dollar plus interest you have to spend later just to "keep spending level". that's government economics.

Spending $1 on education today is a much better investment than spending, say, $20 on a lifetime of prison cells, unemployment benefits, antipoverty programs, and a lower tax base...even with the interest. And oddly enough, I'm OK with maintaining that extra $1 for education into the indefinite future to "keep spending level," instead of maintaining that extra $20 for the consequences to "keep spending level."

Ditto for preventative health care, road maintenance, broadband communication, high-speed rail, and science R&D.
 
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Spending $1 on education today is a much better investment than spending, say, $20 on a lifetime of prison cells, unemployment benefits, antipoverty programs, and a lower tax base...even with the interest

i would like to see the evidence you have that demonstrates that we can draw a straight line from spending on education to savings in prison?

And oddly enough, I'm OK with maintaining that extra $1 for education to "keep spending level," instead of maintaining that extra $20 for the consequences to "keep spending level."

yes. that's because you are playing with a false assumption. I might as well say that if you don't cut spending, an asteroid will hit the earth, and i would rather deal with a reformed education system than mass exctinction.

Ditto for preventative health care, road maintenance, broadband communication, high-speed rail, and science R&D.

CBO: Preventative Medicine As a Cost-Saver is a Myth

Road Maintenance is a steady expense yes, but road maintenance has very little (if anything) to do with our transportation budget; which is much more about pork

broadband communication is the new fiber optic communication

high speed rail is a joke and will produce massive savings in the negative range

and R&D is another area left best to the market; how much have we poured now into the "alternative energy" of corn ethanol?
 
i would like to see the evidence you have that demonstrates that we can draw a straight line from spending on education to savings in prison?

Well, we can draw a straight line from poor education to a higher likelihood of poverty. And we can then draw a line from poverty to all those other sources of spending I mentioned.

cpwill said:
yes. that's because you are playing with a false assumption. I might as well say that if you don't cut spending, an asteroid will hit the earth, and i would rather deal with a reformed education system than mass exctinction.

So which part do you dispute - that educational attainment is closely linked with poverty, or that poverty is closely linked with prison/unemployment/welfare/tax contributions?

cpwill said:

That's a function of our current health care system and how the CBO currently scores proposals, rather than anything about preventative health care itself. The reason for that conclusion is because we're talking specifically about the *government* possibly picking up the cost of preventative health care, versus *whoever* paying for the cost of treatment.

If the goal is a more affordable health care system for the nation - and we're agnostic as to whether the spending comes from tax dollars, insurance premiums, or out-of-pocket hospital bills - then it would be scored very differently. However, that's not how the CBO scores things. It looks solely at the government's income statement rather than the nation's income statement.

cpwill said:
Road Maintenance is a steady expense yes, but road maintenance has very little (if anything) to do with our transportation budget; which is much more about pork

This is also true for bridge maintenance, modernizing our power grid, more efficient water delivery systems, or a vast array of other infrastructure programs. The most obvious example for how investment today can save money tomorrow are the levees in New Orleans.

cpwill said:
broadband communication is the new fiber optic communication

?

cpwill said:
high speed rail is a joke and will produce massive savings in the negative range

...Again, perhaps if one looks solely at the government's income statement instead of the nation's income statement. Don't forget to take into account reduced congestion on roads, fewer traffic accidents, less unproductive time spent waiting at airports, less air pollution, and faster medium-distance travel.

cpwill said:
and R&D is another area left best to the market;

Depends on the type of R&D. Some R&D cannot be done by the private sector because it's too expensive and/or there's no obvious short-term profit potential. But once the science is in place, the private sector may find uses for it.

cpwill said:
how much have we poured now into the "alternative energy" of corn ethanol?

I think the moral of that story is to invest in the right R&D projects, rather than farm subsidies.
 
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Well, we can draw a straight line from poor education to a higher likelihood of poverty

we can draw a heavily dotted line from poor education to poverty. what we can't do is draw a straight line from spending on education to improved education.

So which part do you dispute - that educational attainment is closely linked with poverty, or that poverty is closely linked with prison/unemployment/welfare/tax contributions?

i dispute that throwing another dollar into the gaping maw of our education bureacracy will improve it one iota.

That's a function of our current health care system and how the CBO currently scores proposals, rather than anything about preventative health care itself. The reason for that conclusion is because we're talking specifically about the *government* possibly picking up the cost of preventative health care, versus *whoever* paying for the cost of treatment.

i would love to hear how having the government pick up the tab (which would seem to indicate to me that more people will be taking advantage of the service, which means that the losses will be greater) will somehow magically alter the simple math.

This is also true for bridge maintenance, modernizing our power grid, more efficient water delivery systems, or a vast array of other infrastructure programs.

yup. very little of which are covered by our nations transportation spending. the incentives aren't for politicians to continue to fix up good roads; the incentives are for politicians to build new turnpikes, name them after each other, and then ignore them.


ever read "The World Is Flat"?

...Again, perhaps if one looks solely at the government's income statement instead of the nation's income statement

yes you brought that up earlier. given that we are talking specifically about the President's Budget which is composed of government spending; why do you need to raise this strawman?

don't forget to take into account reduced congestion on roads, fewer traffic accidents, less unproductive time spent waiting at airports, less air pollution, and faster medium-distance travel.

if it's used; which it might be for a very small portion of the US commute.

Depends on the type of R&D. Some R&D cannot be done by the private sector because it's too expensive and/or there's no obvious short-term profit potential

what you mean like drilling for oil and drug development; both of which can take years if not decades and involve sinking billions in costs before you ever see a penny in return?

I think the moral of that story is to invest in the right R&D projects, rather than farm subsidies.

the moral of the story is that politicians respond to political incentives, not scientific ones.
 
The poll is stupid. Who's at fault? Everyone. The people who think they can live on credit forever and the bills never come due. The politicians who think they can buy votes with my money forever. The nitwits who actually believe something can be "free" and no one will ever have to pay. The people who keep voting the nitwits like Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, and our esteemed President into office.

It's time to get serious folks. The lifeboat is sinking and sitting there pointing fingers isn't going to help.
 
I didn't vote because the obvious answer wasn't part of the poll: They're all at fault.
 
Democrats in Congress havent passed a budget in TWO YEARS.......

......and yet there are the brain dead among us that blame Republicans for a potential shutdown......unreal.....
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If we're assigning blame, I would say they're all at fault, and list them in descending order of culpability (IMO, of course):

  1. Democrats in House/Senate.
  2. President Obama.
  3. Republicans in House/Senate.
I’m tempted to put Pres. Obama last, if only because I keep getting the impression he’s not doing anything at all…

But I suppose that's better than doing negative things.

Personally, I don't think a government shutdown will cause much issue, except perhaps temporarily for some government employees.

And, regarding budget, I think many of the methods used to arrive at a budget need drastically changed.

There are so many problems with the whole process that I'm horrified even though I probably only am aware of a tiny fraction of those issues.

First off, the main goal of a budget should be to aim for a spending point that is less than the expected revenue.
Since we’re talking government here, we should shoot for, I would say, 97.5% of the expected revenue at most, since there WILL be cost overruns…And any extra can go to paying off the national debt, or into a "rainy day" fund in case we run across a war we NEED to fight...unlike some of the more recent ones...

Secondary goal should be adequate funding of military and intelligence forces (which may need streamlining in some cases) to ensure the security of our country.
Edit: I should add that if a threat of proportions great enough to demand more than 97.5% of our revenue arises, we're probably screwed anyway, which is why national defense/security is secondary.

Tertiary goal should be everything else, in whatever order you consider best on a personal level.
 
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I didn't vote because the obvious answer wasn't part of the poll: They're all at fault.

House Republicans have passed a budget. Senate Republicans stand ready to vote on it. there is only one party refusing to allow a Budget to go forward, and right now that is the democrats.
 
Spending $1 on education today is a much better investment than spending, say, $20 on a lifetime of prison cells, unemployment benefits, antipoverty programs, and a lower tax base...even with the interest. And oddly enough, I'm OK with maintaining that extra $1 for education into the indefinite future to "keep spending level," instead of maintaining that extra $20 for the consequences to "keep spending level."

Ditto for preventative health care, road maintenance, broadband communication, high-speed rail, and science R&D.

Mayor Snorkum doesn't object to the government spending $1 on education.

It's the other $499,999,999,999 that follow it that seems to be the trouble.
 
House Republicans have passed a budget. Senate Republicans stand ready to vote on it. there is only one party refusing to allow a Budget to go forward, and right now that is the democrats.

Make This Perfectly Clear:

The House Republicans passed the budget the Democrats, who had majority control of the House and Senate, and the White House, refused to do last year. Before anyone starts complaining about the Republican budget, they have to first explain their vote for the Democrats who simply were too incompetent to do their job.
 
Personally, I don't think a government shutdown will cause much issue, except perhaps temporarily for some government employees.

EVERY subcontractor for "non-essential" government services, will cease to operate the minute the money from the goverment stops flowing. All those employees will be "furloughed" or flat out laid-off. Those people will stop engaging in commerce, which will cause other companies to suffer if the Democrats continue to refuse to sign onto the budget presented to them.

Oh, did the Mayor put the blame squarely on the Democrats who didn't have the 'nads to pass a budget last year, like they were supposed to? You better believe it. Their first offer was to trim a WHOPPING four billion dollars and claim that's all they could reasonably provide. Really? The goal is the end of deficits, and the Democrats are looking in the other direction.

It's their fault. All of it.

And, regarding budget, I think many of the methods used to arrive at a budget need drastically changed.

Right.

Very first thing on every budget line item must be a statement that this spending is consistent a specific delegated power in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, and naturally, all honest people are fully aware that the phrase "general welfare" is not a specified power.

Heck, honest people even know that the phrase "general welfare" does not mean the socialist scams perpetrated on America in the 20th and 21st Centuries.

So, First Step: Query - Is It Constitutional, or "What Would James Madison Say?"

Note Well, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Education, Welfare, NPR, the NEA, etc are only the begining of a list of items that don't meet Constitutional muster.

Second Step: - The Federal Budget Should not have more pages than Barney Frank.

People should be able to read the thing.

Third Step: GAAP. Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. Use them. It's how the rest of America works and what the IRS expects when it audits a business.

Fourth Step: The President requires a line-item veto to eliminate wasteful and plain wrong spending. If NPR is so wonderful its fans can get it voted back in by overriding the veto. This should be Amendment 29. Amendment 28 will limit the terms of Congressmen and Senators so they can stop wasting taxpayer funds widening the Capitol doors to fit their bloated heads through.

First off, the main goal of a budget should be to aim for a spending point that is less than the expected revenue.
Since we’re talking government here, we should shoot for, I would say, 97.5% of the expected revenue at most, since there WILL be cost overruns…And any extra can go to paying off the national debt, or into a "rainy day" fund in case we run across a war we NEED to fight...unlike some of the more recent ones...

Any "surplus" should go towards the next years budget and taxes reduced accordingly to return the overcharge to the people. Under no circumstances should the Congress be led to believe that they can create a surplus to stuff into a slush fund for later use. Nothing slushier than a rainy winter's day. If we need to fight a war, ie, the US is attacked, then the rules can be written to sell bonds ...after the proper declaration of war is passed by Congress. There should be enough reserve in the military to handle short term crises.

Secondary goal should be adequate funding of military and intelligence forces (which may need streamlining in some cases) to ensure the security of our country.
Edit: I should add that if a threat of proportions great enough to demand more than 97.5% of our revenue arises, we're probably screwed anyway, which is why national defense/security is secondary.

DO THE MATH.

If...no, WHEN the Cascadia fault ruptures, it will damage the Washington/Oregon/maybe California coast to the tune of $300 billion. That's 93% right there. One would expect an emergency fund to be a minimum of 15% of the annual budget. One would also expect that it would take a 2/3 vote of the House and the Senate to unlock it.
 
Given that the latest stop gap has some rather onerous policy measure in it. I now blame the republicans for using the issue to grandstand.
 
Given that the latest stop gap has some rather onerous policy measure in it. I now blame the republicans for using the issue to grandstand.

BS. we are in this position because Democrats spent all of last year refusing to pass a budget because they didn't want to admit what they were spending before the midterms.

the "onerous policy measures"? no publicly funded abortion in DC? both Obama and Reid voted for that in 2009! and Reid did so in 2008, 2007, 2006.... the only real change is the EPA no-passing-cap-and-trade measure. which isn't grandstanding, that's stopping the EPA from an unconstitutional siezure of power.


Republicans in the House have not only led with multiple continuing resolutions, (including the last one, which would have paid the troops in case of a government shut down, which Obama called 'a distraction" and threatened to veto) and a budget. they have done - in the middle of all this - what the Democrats failed to find time to do all last year.


what a load. :roll:
 
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BS. we are in this position because Democrats spent all of last year refusing to pass a budget because they didn't want to admit what they were spending before the midterms.

the "onerous policy measures"? no publicly funded abortion in DC? both Obama and Reid voted for that in 2009! and Reid did so in 2008, 2007, 2006.... the only real change is the EPA no-passing-cap-and-trade measure. which isn't grandstanding, that's stopping the EPA from an unconstitutional siezure of power.


Republicans in the House have not only led with multiple continuing resolutions, (including the last one, which would have paid the troops in case of a government shut down, which Obama called 'a distraction" and threatened to veto) and a budget. they have done - in the middle of all this - what the Democrats failed to find time to do all last year.


what a load. :roll:

Thank you Democrats for making me use my savings because you can't do your job.
 
Thank you Democrats for making me use my savings because you can't do your job.

let's both be grateful that A) we have savings and B) we don't have to worry about our kids because of this. some guys will.
 
let's both be grateful that A) we have savings and B) we don't have to worry about our kids because of this. some guys will.

C. Glad am single and don't have the worries of a family man right.
D. Fox news was some breaking news that there might be a deal.
 
EVERY subcontractor for "non-essential" government services, will cease to operate the minute the money from the government stops flowing. All those employees will be "furloughed" or flat out laid-off. Those people will stop engaging in commerce, which will cause other companies to suffer if the Democrats continue to refuse to sign onto the budget presented to them.

Oh, did the Mayor put the blame squarely on the Democrats who didn't have the 'nads to pass a budget last year, like they were supposed to? You better believe it. Their first offer was to trim a WHOPPING four billion dollars and claim that's all they could reasonably provide. Really? The goal is the end of deficits, and the Democrats are looking in the other direction.

It's their fault. All of it.
I wouldn't say ALL of it...

But I would say the majority of it...

And in my mind, “non-essential” needs redefined…

Among many other things…

Like what constitutes unemployment….

For some reason, the official unemployment number =/= the number of people who have need of a job.

But meh.

Right.

Very first thing on every budget line item must be a statement that this spending is consistent a specific delegated power in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, and naturally, all honest people are fully aware that the phrase "general welfare" is not a specified power.

Heck, honest people even know that the phrase "general welfare" does not mean the socialist scams perpetrated on America in the 20th and 21st Centuries.

So, First Step: Query - Is It Constitutional, or "What Would James Madison Say?"

Note Well, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Education, Welfare, NPR, the NEA, etc are only the beginning of a list of items that don't meet Constitutional muster.

Second Step: - The Federal Budget Should not have more pages than Barney Frank.

People should be able to read the thing.

Third Step: GAAP. Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. Use them. It's how the rest of America works and what the IRS expects when it audits a business.

Fourth Step: The President requires a line-item veto to eliminate wasteful and plain wrong spending. If NPR is so wonderful its fans can get it voted back in by overriding the veto. This should be Amendment 29. Amendment 28 will limit the terms of Congressmen and Senators so they can stop wasting taxpayer funds widening the Capitol doors to fit their bloated heads through.
My idea is somewhat more likely to occur, methinks...Although that's not saying much...

Any "surplus" should go towards the next years budget and taxes reduced accordingly to return the overcharge to the people. Under no circumstances should the Congress be led to believe that they can create a surplus to stuff into a slush fund for later use. Nothing slushier than a rainy winter's day. If we need to fight a war, i.e., the US is attacked, then the rules can be written to sell bonds ...after the proper declaration of war is passed by Congress. There should be enough reserve in the military to handle short term crises.
Interesting point... Any kind of surplus would need to be extremely well protected from poaching...

Not keeping the surplus around (as in your suggestion) is probably the safest way.

One of the problems is, if I understand it correctly, that if there's a surplus in some area of government, the next year funding can (and IMO, should) be reduced on that area...so no government agency/department lets themselves have a surplus, since they don't want to be somewhat reduced in funds...

DO THE MATH.

If...no, WHEN the Cascadia fault ruptures, it will damage the Washington/Oregon/maybe California coast to the tune of $300 billion. That's 93% right there. One would expect an emergency fund to be a minimum of 15% of the annual budget. One would also expect that it would take a 2/3 vote of the House and the Senate to unlock it.
I have no knowledge of this potential disaster, outside knowing there are faults in that area, and they shift every so often...So I cannot make any kind of educated guess on how accurate you are.

That said, does this statement not somewhat contradict your previous contention that we shouldn't have a "rainy day fund"?
Or did I miss something?

WOT!!! *cringe*
 
Budget debates should always happen after elections. Can you imagine how bad this debate would be if there were an election next week on top of it?
 
Both the congressional Republicans and Democrats are at fault. The president less so.

I hate the entire way we do annual budgets in this country. People shriek that spending is too high without even considering that in some cases, more spending now means less spending in the long run.

What Republicans fail to grasp is that massive government cut backs mean thousands of lay-offs, thousands of families on the streets, mostly Democrat, and with no address, won't be able to vote. Say... maybe they're smarter than I thought...

ricksfolly
 
C. Glad am single and don't have the worries of a family man right.

yeah, if i was still a lance-coolie with a wife and a kid making a cool $1150 a paycheck, I would have been plenty worried.
 
What Republicans fail to grasp is that massive government cut backs mean thousands of lay-offs, thousands of families on the streets, mostly Democrat, and with no address, won't be able to vote. Say... maybe they're smarter than I thought...

ricksfolly

saw a great blog post the other night: "Hey Representative Ryan; if you're looking for places to cut, 800,000 "nonessential" government employees might be a good place to start."
 
saw a great blog post the other night: "Hey Representative Ryan; if you're looking for places to cut, 800,000 "nonessential" government employees might be a good place to start."

By "great blog post" you mean another ignorant person that speaks without any knowledge of hte situation.

Go see how your intelligence community feels about not getting paid to work. See how citizens enjoy not being able to travel outside of the country. Examine how new seniors like being unable to get social security. Watch as all our national parks and monuments begin to go to ruin. Examine how every agency becomes an even bigger septic tank for waste as you get rid of budgetary individuals. Be ready for all Air Marshals to be grounded with no one paying out the vouchers for their travel. Watch as law enforcement agencies become inept as their new and old members are unable to get training. Watch as agencies are left with using whatever supplies they have now and nothing more.

I could go on and on.

People who speak without actually researching the bull**** they say aren't presenting a "great" idea, they're showing their ignorance. "Non-essential" government employees are those that are not needed during a theoritical short term shut down, when there is no money available to even pay people for their work let alone any other expenses, where only jobs required to maintain safety and well being are primarily still operating.

Are there employees within that 800,000 work force that could be cut? Absolutely. There's employees within the other 1,200,000 that could be cut as well. However the idiocy of suggesting that the 800,000 employees are all ripe for one as being unnessary or non-essential shows nothing but the ignorance of that blogger
 
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