View Poll Results: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

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  • The House/Senate Republicans

    32 46.38%
  • The House/Senate Democrats

    24 34.78%
  • The President (Obama)

    13 18.84%
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Thread: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

  1. #51
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    wrong. spending more now means that you have a higher baseline in the future. each dollar extra that you spend now is a dollar plus interest you have to spend later just to "keep spending level". that's government economics.
    Spending $1 on education today is a much better investment than spending, say, $20 on a lifetime of prison cells, unemployment benefits, antipoverty programs, and a lower tax base...even with the interest. And oddly enough, I'm OK with maintaining that extra $1 for education into the indefinite future to "keep spending level," instead of maintaining that extra $20 for the consequences to "keep spending level."

    Ditto for preventative health care, road maintenance, broadband communication, high-speed rail, and science R&D.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-06-11 at 02:29 AM.
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Spending $1 on education today is a much better investment than spending, say, $20 on a lifetime of prison cells, unemployment benefits, antipoverty programs, and a lower tax base...even with the interest
    i would like to see the evidence you have that demonstrates that we can draw a straight line from spending on education to savings in prison?

    And oddly enough, I'm OK with maintaining that extra $1 for education to "keep spending level," instead of maintaining that extra $20 for the consequences to "keep spending level."
    yes. that's because you are playing with a false assumption. I might as well say that if you don't cut spending, an asteroid will hit the earth, and i would rather deal with a reformed education system than mass exctinction.

    Ditto for preventative health care, road maintenance, broadband communication, high-speed rail, and science R&D.
    CBO: Preventative Medicine As a Cost-Saver is a Myth

    Road Maintenance is a steady expense yes, but road maintenance has very little (if anything) to do with our transportation budget; which is much more about pork

    broadband communication is the new fiber optic communication

    high speed rail is a joke and will produce massive savings in the negative range

    and R&D is another area left best to the market; how much have we poured now into the "alternative energy" of corn ethanol?

  3. #53
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i would like to see the evidence you have that demonstrates that we can draw a straight line from spending on education to savings in prison?
    Well, we can draw a straight line from poor education to a higher likelihood of poverty. And we can then draw a line from poverty to all those other sources of spending I mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    yes. that's because you are playing with a false assumption. I might as well say that if you don't cut spending, an asteroid will hit the earth, and i would rather deal with a reformed education system than mass exctinction.
    So which part do you dispute - that educational attainment is closely linked with poverty, or that poverty is closely linked with prison/unemployment/welfare/tax contributions?

    That's a function of our current health care system and how the CBO currently scores proposals, rather than anything about preventative health care itself. The reason for that conclusion is because we're talking specifically about the *government* possibly picking up the cost of preventative health care, versus *whoever* paying for the cost of treatment.

    If the goal is a more affordable health care system for the nation - and we're agnostic as to whether the spending comes from tax dollars, insurance premiums, or out-of-pocket hospital bills - then it would be scored very differently. However, that's not how the CBO scores things. It looks solely at the government's income statement rather than the nation's income statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Road Maintenance is a steady expense yes, but road maintenance has very little (if anything) to do with our transportation budget; which is much more about pork
    This is also true for bridge maintenance, modernizing our power grid, more efficient water delivery systems, or a vast array of other infrastructure programs. The most obvious example for how investment today can save money tomorrow are the levees in New Orleans.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    broadband communication is the new fiber optic communication
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    high speed rail is a joke and will produce massive savings in the negative range
    ...Again, perhaps if one looks solely at the government's income statement instead of the nation's income statement. Don't forget to take into account reduced congestion on roads, fewer traffic accidents, less unproductive time spent waiting at airports, less air pollution, and faster medium-distance travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    and R&D is another area left best to the market;
    Depends on the type of R&D. Some R&D cannot be done by the private sector because it's too expensive and/or there's no obvious short-term profit potential. But once the science is in place, the private sector may find uses for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    how much have we poured now into the "alternative energy" of corn ethanol?
    I think the moral of that story is to invest in the right R&D projects, rather than farm subsidies.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-06-11 at 02:57 AM.
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, we can draw a straight line from poor education to a higher likelihood of poverty
    we can draw a heavily dotted line from poor education to poverty. what we can't do is draw a straight line from spending on education to improved education.

    So which part do you dispute - that educational attainment is closely linked with poverty, or that poverty is closely linked with prison/unemployment/welfare/tax contributions?
    i dispute that throwing another dollar into the gaping maw of our education bureacracy will improve it one iota.

    That's a function of our current health care system and how the CBO currently scores proposals, rather than anything about preventative health care itself. The reason for that conclusion is because we're talking specifically about the *government* possibly picking up the cost of preventative health care, versus *whoever* paying for the cost of treatment.
    i would love to hear how having the government pick up the tab (which would seem to indicate to me that more people will be taking advantage of the service, which means that the losses will be greater) will somehow magically alter the simple math.

    This is also true for bridge maintenance, modernizing our power grid, more efficient water delivery systems, or a vast array of other infrastructure programs.
    yup. very little of which are covered by our nations transportation spending. the incentives aren't for politicians to continue to fix up good roads; the incentives are for politicians to build new turnpikes, name them after each other, and then ignore them.

    ?
    ever read "The World Is Flat"?

    ...Again, perhaps if one looks solely at the government's income statement instead of the nation's income statement
    yes you brought that up earlier. given that we are talking specifically about the President's Budget which is composed of government spending; why do you need to raise this strawman?

    don't forget to take into account reduced congestion on roads, fewer traffic accidents, less unproductive time spent waiting at airports, less air pollution, and faster medium-distance travel.
    if it's used; which it might be for a very small portion of the US commute.

    Depends on the type of R&D. Some R&D cannot be done by the private sector because it's too expensive and/or there's no obvious short-term profit potential
    what you mean like drilling for oil and drug development; both of which can take years if not decades and involve sinking billions in costs before you ever see a penny in return?

    I think the moral of that story is to invest in the right R&D projects, rather than farm subsidies.
    the moral of the story is that politicians respond to political incentives, not scientific ones.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    The poll is stupid. Who's at fault? Everyone. The people who think they can live on credit forever and the bills never come due. The politicians who think they can buy votes with my money forever. The nitwits who actually believe something can be "free" and no one will ever have to pay. The people who keep voting the nitwits like Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, and our esteemed President into office.

    It's time to get serious folks. The lifeboat is sinking and sitting there pointing fingers isn't going to help.

  6. #56
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    I didn't vote because the obvious answer wasn't part of the poll: They're all at fault.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Democrats in Congress havent passed a budget in TWO YEARS.......

    ......and yet there are the brain dead among us that blame Republicans for a potential shutdown......unreal.....
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  8. #58
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    If we're assigning blame, I would say they're all at fault, and list them in descending order of culpability (IMO, of course):

    1. Democrats in House/Senate.
    2. President Obama.
    3. Republicans in House/Senate.

    I’m tempted to put Pres. Obama last, if only because I keep getting the impression he’s not doing anything at all…

    But I suppose that's better than doing negative things.

    Personally, I don't think a government shutdown will cause much issue, except perhaps temporarily for some government employees.

    And, regarding budget, I think many of the methods used to arrive at a budget need drastically changed.

    There are so many problems with the whole process that I'm horrified even though I probably only am aware of a tiny fraction of those issues.

    First off, the main goal of a budget should be to aim for a spending point that is less than the expected revenue.
    Since we’re talking government here, we should shoot for, I would say, 97.5% of the expected revenue at most, since there WILL be cost overruns…And any extra can go to paying off the national debt, or into a "rainy day" fund in case we run across a war we NEED to fight...unlike some of the more recent ones...

    Secondary goal should be adequate funding of military and intelligence forces (which may need streamlining in some cases) to ensure the security of our country.
    Edit: I should add that if a threat of proportions great enough to demand more than 97.5% of our revenue arises, we're probably screwed anyway, which is why national defense/security is secondary.

    Tertiary goal should be everything else, in whatever order you consider best on a personal level.
    Last edited by The Mark; 04-06-11 at 10:41 PM.
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I didn't vote because the obvious answer wasn't part of the poll: They're all at fault.
    House Republicans have passed a budget. Senate Republicans stand ready to vote on it. there is only one party refusing to allow a Budget to go forward, and right now that is the democrats.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Spending $1 on education today is a much better investment than spending, say, $20 on a lifetime of prison cells, unemployment benefits, antipoverty programs, and a lower tax base...even with the interest. And oddly enough, I'm OK with maintaining that extra $1 for education into the indefinite future to "keep spending level," instead of maintaining that extra $20 for the consequences to "keep spending level."

    Ditto for preventative health care, road maintenance, broadband communication, high-speed rail, and science R&D.
    Mayor Snorkum doesn't object to the government spending $1 on education.

    It's the other $499,999,999,999 that follow it that seems to be the trouble.

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