View Poll Results: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

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  • The House/Senate Republicans

    32 46.38%
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    24 34.78%
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Thread: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

  1. #31
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And as I pointed out, the amount that Republicans are suggesting ot cut from the current budget is SMALLER than what they campaigned on, IE a compromised number aimed at being more likely to be pased.
    Well, that doesn't really mean anything in itself. Politicians overpromise all the time. If Obama had emphatically supported single-payer health care instead of cautiously pushing for a public option, would you feel better about the health care law that DID emerge, because he "compromised" more? I find that it doesn't really make much sense to judge legislation based on the specific numbers that were promised before the election, when the politicians weren't actually at the negotiating table. At that stage, any numbers they propose are nothing more than a wish list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    All houses or just one, it is unrealistic and ignorant to expect or base your actions off the assumption that people who literally just started 3 months ago in large part due to cuts in spending are going to cave and compromise to almost 25% or less of what they campaigned on within spitting distance of being placed into office.
    Any budget that emerges must have the support of some congressional Republicans, some congressional Democrats, and the Democrat president in order to pass. This is a mathematical fact. Therefore it's not going to work to just appeal to the hard right while picking off a few Democratic votes. The Republican House leadership would be far better off abandoning a few votes on their right flank in order to establish a broad bipartisan consensus. And I say that not in a kumbaya-can't-we-all-just-get-along sense, but in a practical sense: There's no other way to pass a budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    But then, your post makes my other point. It is more the Democrats fault than the Republicans at this point because the Democrats DID have control of the House, Senate, and Presidency and yet still didn't pass a Budget during the first quarter of the Fiscal Year.
    I'm certainly not defending the congressional Democrats' behavior on this either.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-04-11 at 07:28 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I am tired of hearing people say the liberals hate the Constitution... Obama hates the Constitution, when it was Bush who told us to stop "throwing the Constitution in his face" and that "it's just a piece of paper."

    Exactly which liberal stances are clearly against the Constitution?
    I don't give a crap about what Bush thinks, he's not president. I'm talking about Obama and Liberals. I want anyone to obey the constitution.

    I can think of two bills off the top of my head that were obviously unconstitutional recently trying to be passed by democrats. The Massachusetts law try to get ride of the electoral college bypassing amendment to the constitution processes. The Disclose Act, which obviously violates the 1st amendment to the constitution and it got pushed through the house of representatives by Liberals and got blocked in the senate with only one democrat (Henry Ried) who voted against cloture. These are two sound examples that Liberals have little regard for the constitution and will pass laws that fit their agenda regardless.

    The Liberal Congress also abuses the Implied powers to socialize redistribution of wealth.
    And Liberals tend to pass laws that Infringe on personal Liberty and justify taking money from the wealthy and give to the poor that don't deserve it, making the poor more and more dependent on the government and not dependant on themselves.

    I gave a couple literal examples and a couple of philosophical examples the way Liberal violate the language of the constitution.

  3. #33
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I can think of two bills off the top of my head that were obviously unconstitutional recently trying to be passed by democrats. The Massachusetts law try to get ride of the electoral college bypassing amendment to the constitution processes.
    That isn't unconstitutional. The Constitution says that each state gets a certain number of electors and whoever wins the electoral college is the president. However, it doesn't say HOW the states are supposed to choose their electors, which means it's up to the state to decide. Traditionally, most states have awarded their electoral votes to whichever ticket gets the most votes in their respective state...but there is nothing in the Constitution REQUIRING them to do that.

    What the new agreement would do is award a state's electoral votes to the winner of the nationwide popular vote. It won't take effect until 270 EVs worth of states have signed on, thus switching us to a de facto popular vote system. However, the electoral college would still exist exactly as specified by the Constitution. It's perfectly legal.
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  4. #34
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Well, that doesn't really mean anything in itself. Politicians overpromise all the time. If Obama had emphatically supported single-payer health care instead of cautiously pushing for a public option, would you feel better about the health care law that DID emerge, because he "compromised" more? I find that it doesn't really make much sense to judge legislation based on the specific numbers that were promised before the election, when the politicians weren't actually at the negotiating table. At that stage, any numbers they propose are nothing more than a wish list.
    If Obama campaigned in 2008 strongly on Single-Payer Health Care and then in February of 2009 began the actual legislative push to get it, I would suggest it'd be extremely unrealistic on the part of the Republicans to look at the situation as one where they should expect or base their actions off of the notion that Obama was going to sizable and significantly compromise on Single-Payer health care. Do people violate and not go as strong on major campaign themes? Sure, early 2000's showed this often for the Republicans. However, in general, this kind of thing doesn't tend to happen within the first 6 months of gaining office, let alone within 2 to 4 months as has been the case with this budget stuff.

    And considering one of the biggest issues with this new crop was that many that voted for them seemed to do so with the notion that they're going to trust in this one more time, and if they are nothing but hollow words a 2nd time around that there's not going to be a 3rd. This set of Republicans are set in a very big "boy who cried wolf" type of situation, which to me makes it far more obvious, far more predictable, and far more understandable that they're likely to not be extremely compromise friendly on key things to them a few months into gaining office.

    I'm not saying its right, I'm stating its simply an unreasonable expectation to think that wasn't going to happen and it was very ignorant and naive thinking on the part of the Democrats if they weren't, or aren't, planning or expecting that to be the case.

    Any budget that emerges must have the support of some congressional Republicans, some congressional Democrats, and the Democrat president in order to pass. This is a mathematical fact. Therefore it's not going to work to just appeal to the hard right while picking off a few Democratic votes. The Republican House leadership would be far better off abandoning a few votes on their right flank in order to establish a broad bipartisan consensus. And I say that not in a kumbaya-can't-we-all-just-get-along sense, but in a practical sense: There's no other way to pass a budget.
    I think they know they're going to have to compromise. I think they're figuring that a shut down is going to put more pressure on Democrats than it will on them and will lead to a compromise that is more palatable to the Republicans than they would get without it. I don't think they honestly believe that they won't have to compromise to a point, or at least I hope they're not that naive. I just think they're trying to get into the best position to get the most out of that compromise.

    I'm certainly not defending the congressional Democrats' behavior on this either.
    Gotcha. I'm not saying the Republicans don't have some blame. In many way's what you say is logical and makes sense, but I think it also is that way only inside a bubble when you don't take into account the past election and what things are meaning right now for their constituents. But they do hold some blame.

  5. #35
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault? The Republicans? The Democrats? The President? Who do you believe would be at fault if congress doesn't pass a spending bill that funds the government? Please explain your answers.
    Does someone have to be at fault? It's obviously a political question. And if we establish blame, then what? What will you do about it?
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    All of the above. The democrats for having too much pork and too much spending to begin with, the republicans for being too stubborn in their demands and stonewalling anything they don't like, and the president for not doing anything about it...or anything for that matter.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    The government shutting down is the result of failed leadership of all representatives involved. There should be an "all of the above" option.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    The Republicans promised to cut a tenth of a terabuck from this budget. They compromised to the point of cutting only sixty billion dollars.

    The president and the leftist insulted the will of the American people expressed last November by proposing a mere four billion dollars in cuts.

    100% of the blame lies with the President, for failing to lead, for being unable to surrender his obligations to the special interests. 100% of the blame also lies with the Democrats who can't seem to realize that the United States is broke and should not be borrowing money to continue paying their political pandering.

  9. #39
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And this has what to do with what I wrote?

    The whole mindset that we need spending cuts RIGHT NOW is silly. The government is not in imminent danger of going bankrupt. Yes, we have some serious problems with the long-term structural deficit that need to be solved, but that's no reason to cut off valuable spending now.
    The whole problem with this quote is that there is TOO much WASTEFUL spending.
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    My idea of a radical Republican is one who unconscionably threatens to force this nation into default and bring about a worldwide financial catastrophe by refusing to raise the debt ceiling unless they get their way. My idea of a radical Republican is one who attaches riders to must pass budget bills in inane assaults on long standing national policies regarding women's health services, public broadcasting and a host of their other pet peeves despite not having held a single hearing or obtained a single committee vote. My idea of a radical Republican is one who goes to Washington and recklessly pursues a course that may result in shutting down the federal government and derailing our frail economic recovery.
    What economic recovery? You mean the latest economic bubble...
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