View Poll Results: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

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Thread: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

  1. #21
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Republicans could easily say the same thing about the Democrats who are unwilling to compromise. Both parties are in a stale mate regarding the budget bill. However, I believe most of the blame is with the Democrats who didn't pass a budget when they had governing monopoly. I agree with Zyphlin's points. America voted in a largely Republican House mainly due to government spending, the Democrats need to recognize this and work with Republicans instead of trying to force them to comply to a large budget that Republicans and the American people want to greatly reduce.
    I guess it comes down to which is worse: the government shutting down, or not getting enough spending cuts in the bill?

    If the GOP cared more about seeing the government shut down, then, I think, they would have given Congress a bill that would have been more likely to pass. However, I think the entire procedure and way of passing the budget is messed up. Like somebody else said, maybe we should have long term budgets, not short term.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    No no no no...

    I love how Liberals are trying to portray that their policies are the 'norm'. Their philosophies are waaaaayyy off base to the constitution.

    We need drastic spending cuts, because of drastic un-balanced spending..... it's very simple
    I am tired of hearing people say the liberals hate the Constitution... Obama hates the Constitution, when it was Bush who told us to stop "throwing the Constitution in his face" and that "it's just a piece of paper."

    Exactly which liberal stances are clearly against the Constitution?

  3. #23
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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That might be true...if they had been elected with sizable mandates to control the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the White House. But they weren't. They control HALF of Congress and don't have the presidency.

    Whether they like it or not, they are going to have to compromise in some way.
    And as I pointed out, the amount that Republicans are suggesting ot cut from the current budget is SMALLER than what they campaigned on, IE a compromised number aimed at being more likely to be pased. That said, whether or not they took all the chambers of government, at the very least the 90 or so new house members who specifically were voted in largely due to the demand by their consituents to significantly cut spending would have to be complete idiots to go from the 100 billion they campaigned on down to 15 or 30 billion. That's compromising down to an almost 75% decrease from what they promised just a few months ago to get elected. They've already compromised by dropping down to about 60% of what they campaigned on by saying ~$60 billion in cuts. All houses or just one, it is unrealistic and ignorant to expect or base your actions off the assumption that people who literally just started 3 months ago in large part due to cuts in spending are going to cave and compromise to almost 25% or less of what they campaigned on within spitting distance of being placed into office.

    But then, your post makes my other point. It is more the Democrats fault than the Republicans at this point because the Democrats DID have control of the House, Senate, and Presidency and yet still didn't pass a Budget during the first quarter of the Fiscal Year.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I guess it comes down to which is worse: the government shutting down, or not getting enough spending cuts in the bill?
    As someone working for the government and will be significantly affected by a shut down...

    Not getting enough spending cuts.

    They already compromised from their campaign promises by dropping from 100 Billion to 63 billion. Now they're being told they need to compromise on their compromised number. This House was elected in large part due to the desire for Fiscal Responsability. If they bend to the point that their line may as well start resembling a circle just THREE MONTHS into being in office then they may as well kiss any hope for fiscal responsability with regards to the budgets to the curb for the next 2 years, and any good hope of Republican wins in 2012 and continued control of the budget can go right along with it.

    So in my mind...yes, if it takes 2 weeks or a month of government shut down to actually show that they, and the people who elected them, are serious about cutting spending then so be it. The short term harm is worth the long term gain.

    If they honestly didn't care about a government shut down at all there never would've been the past two CR's that they passed.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    As someone working for the government and will be significantly affected by a shut down...

    Not getting enough spending cuts.

    They already compromised from their campaign promises by dropping from 100 Billion to 63 billion. Now they're being told they need to compromise on their compromised number. This House was elected in large part due to the desire for Fiscal Responsability. If they bend to the point that their line may as well start resembling a circle just THREE MONTHS into being in office then they may as well kiss any hope for fiscal responsability with regards to the budgets to the curb for the next 2 years, and any good hope of Republican wins in 2012 and continued control of the budget can go right along with it.

    So in my mind...yes, if it takes 2 weeks or a month of government shut down to actually show that they, and the people who elected them, are serious about cutting spending then so be it. The short term harm is worth the long term gain.

    If they honestly didn't care about a government shut down at all there never would've been the past two CR's that they passed.
    What if their demands are still unmet, then what will happen? Would it be worth it then?

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And as I pointed out, the amount that Republicans are suggesting ot cut from the current budget is SMALLER than what they campaigned on, IE a compromised number aimed at being more likely to be pased. That said, whether or not they took all the chambers of government, at the very least the 90 or so new house members who specifically were voted in largely due to the demand by their consituents to significantly cut spending would have to be complete idiots to go from the 100 billion they campaigned on down to 15 or 30 billion. That's compromising down to an almost 75% decrease from what they promised just a few months ago to get elected. They've already compromised by dropping down to about 60% of what they campaigned on by saying ~$60 billion in cuts. All houses or just one, it is unrealistic and ignorant to expect or base your actions off the assumption that people who literally just started 3 months ago in large part due to cuts in spending are going to cave and compromise to almost 25% or less of what they campaigned on within spitting distance of being placed into office.

    But then, your post makes my other point. It is more the Democrats fault than the Republicans at this point because the Democrats DID have control of the House, Senate, and Presidency and yet still didn't pass a Budget during the first quarter of the Fiscal Year.
    What the Voters Actually Said on Election Day — The American Magazine

    As to economic policy going forward, 39 percent indicated that reducing the deficit should be the highest priority for the next Congress, 37 percent said spending to create jobs should be the priority, and 18 percent said cutting taxes should be.
    That is slightly over a third. That is almost a dead heat with "creating jobs". You are overplaying the demand for cutting budget from their constituents. Further, failing to pass a bill to cut the budget due to not compromising means they failed to serve those who do want budget cuts.

    You always have an excuse to not compromise. I find that interesting.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Hard to say to be honest. Probably not, but its a gamble worth taking in my mind as the positives outweight the negatives.

    Furthermore, I think the result they want is more likely to come about from a government shut down rather than the other way around. Federal Workers are not exactly popular, getting it from both sides. I'll remind you it wasn't that long ago that we had this administration suggesting Federal Employees need to feel the same kind of pain as their private sector brethren and thus put forward the pay freeze. And that was from the side that, traditionally, federal employees are more often to side with. A federal shutdown is going to affect non-emergency, non-law enforcement individuals in the government...meaning primarily the democratic constituents of the work force. So a shut down is likely to exert far more pressure on Democrats to get something done than Republicans, meaning the pressure to compromise will be more on the Democrats than Republicans.

    My honest opinion is that we'll shut down (Or narrowly avert it) and end up with something in the $45-$50 range of cuts. This is lower than the Republicans recent "sticking" point number of something like $63, but at the same time is around the 50% mark of what the Republicans campaigned on just a few months ago. So Democrats can lament how they had to do something to get federal employees back to work and got the Republicans to drop lower, while Republicans can suggest they had to compromise because they didn't have all houses but still managed to get a compromise that was equitable/slightly in their favor in regards to the percentage split.

    I think if we're looking at a $30 or less number than the Republicans will have botched this and done poorly imho, and did their constituents who just elected them into office a disservice. They would not be serving the American people, at least not the segment of the population that elected them. Which would mean only ONE side of the aisle would be actively serving their constituents, leaving half of the American Public to pound sand.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What the Voters Actually Said on Election Day — The American Magazine

    That is slightly over a third. That is almost a dead heat with "creating jobs". You are overplaying the demand for cutting budget from their constituents. Further, failing to pass a bill to cut the budget due to not compromising means they failed to serve those who do want budget cuts.
    You're looking at numbers from the entire electorate. Have any specifically for the individuals that voted Republican? Look at the Republicans platforms, especially the majority that won in the house. Their focuses were the Obamacare, the Bush Tax Cuts, and fiscal responsability by and large. Flat out, I'll ask, are you seriously suggesting that for the majority of Republicans "fiscal responsability" or "reduce spending" was not easily one of the three to four largest factors they pushed in their campaigns, or pushed as the national message? When speaking to REPUBLICAN voters, are you suggesting reducing spending was not one of the main things they were concerned about?

    I don't care about the entire number, Democrats didn't help get the Republicans elected so whether the Democratic contingent of those voters didn't want spending cuts is irrelevant to the facts of why the republicans were voted into office.

    You always have an excuse to not compromise. I find that interesting.
    If you find it interesting you should do a search and find my comments on compromise, and you'll likely find out why. I think "compromise" as its used in the general vernacular of politics today is a fraud, a cowardly and worthless thing that is the best way to get **** for everyone. I am for legitimate and worth while compromise, however 9 out of 10 times that work is used these days it doesn't fall into that. I find an "excuse" not to compromise because most of the time, regardless of which side is being told they need to compromise, its generally bull****.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Hard to say to be honest. Probably not, but its a gamble worth taking in my mind as the positives outweight the negatives.

    Furthermore, I think the result they want is more likely to come about from a government shut down rather than the other way around. Federal Workers are not exactly popular, getting it from both sides. I'll remind you it wasn't that long ago that we had this administration suggesting Federal Employees need to feel the same kind of pain as their private sector brethren and thus put forward the pay freeze. And that was from the side that, traditionally, federal employees are more often to side with. A federal shutdown is going to affect non-emergency, non-law enforcement individuals in the government...meaning primarily the democratic constituents of the work force. So a shut down is likely to exert far more pressure on Democrats to get something done than Republicans, meaning the pressure to compromise will be more on the Democrats than Republicans.

    My honest opinion is that we'll shut down (Or narrowly avert it) and end up with something in the $45-$50 range of cuts. This is lower than the Republicans recent "sticking" point number of something like $63, but at the same time is around the 50% mark of what the Republicans campaigned on just a few months ago. So Democrats can lament how they had to do something to get federal employees back to work and got the Republicans to drop lower, while Republicans can suggest they had to compromise because they didn't have all houses but still managed to get a compromise that was equitable/slightly in their favor in regards to the percentage split.

    I think if we're looking at a $30 or less number than the Republicans will have botched this and done poorly imho, and did their constituents who just elected them into office a disservice. They would not be serving the American people, at least not the segment of the population that elected them. Which would mean only ONE side of the aisle would be actively serving their constituents, leaving half of the American Public to pound sand.
    What pisses me off is the size of cuts should not be the debating point. We need cuts. What should be the debate is where the cuts come from. In some ways it is an easier debate to resolve.

    What also pisses me off is that if the government does "shut down", then that means to my mind that our government has failed us. They have been unwilling to do what it takes to represent their districts and the US itself. Thank god our founding fathers did not play the game the way modern politicians do.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: If the government shuts down due to defunding who is at fault?

    If there's a gov't shutdown it will be the fault of both sides. It means they suck at negotiating.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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