View Poll Results: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Any religious private school that included religious education/indoctrination.

    0 0%
  • Specific religious private schools that included religious education/indoctrination.

    1 3.33%
  • Religious private school that only use tax dollars for secular education.

    1 3.33%
  • Any religious private school whose education is secular.

    2 6.67%
  • Non-religious private schools.

    6 20.00%
  • I support school vouchers regardless of the type of school.

    8 26.67%
  • I do not support school voucher at all regardless of the private school.

    13 43.33%
  • other/I do not know

    4 13.33%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 108

Thread: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

  1. #81
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    I do not think that it is inherently bad. I think the problems that come from created segregated schooling is the real problem.
    I see no problem with ability segregation.
    Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that the high ability students get bored to death waiting for the others to catch up.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    It is likely to happen if we maintain a philosophy that high achievement is the only goal of education.
    That should be the goal.

    But getting poorer performing students to achieve higher is the goal, so again, why would the money lay idle?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    Actually, it forces innovation. If you have two similarly positioned schools and one is out performing the other, it's not because of stacking the deck, it's because of better practices.
    Specialization has been shown the give greater results (in most other areas) than making an average.

    Schools that specialize in identifying the short coming of poorer performing students would greatly raise their ability of achieving higher education.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  2. #82
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    01-18-13 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Not discrimination based on race, etc., discrimination based on academic ability and behavior problems....
    Yeah, the law requires Stanford to accept applicants with SAT scores of 150 or lower. Yep, that sure explains how Chelsea got into Standford....

  3. #83
    User OhReally?'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    04-10-11 @ 01:08 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    129

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I see no problem with ability segregation.
    I don't see a problem with ability segregation WITHIN a school. I have a problem with ability segregation to get INTO a school. That is an important difference.

    Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that the high ability students get bored to death waiting for the others to catch up.
    I tend to agree. Efforts have been made in public and private schools to combat this problem. It is a significant problem for smaller school districts that do not have the resources to devote significant resources to a handful of children. That would be true in private or public schools.

    That should be the goal.
    That should be ONE of the goals.

    But getting poorer performing students to achieve higher is the goal, so again, why would the money lay idle?
    It is difficult to get lower performing students to achieve higher goals with competition. If the lower performing students are relegated to the only schools that will accept them while the higher achieving students are funneled to private schools, it destroys the internal competition motivations.

    Specialization has been shown the give greater results (in most other areas) than making an average.
    Yes and no. Specialization is important, but it is also important to realize that some students need the challenge of schools they cannot get into.

    Schools that specialize in identifying the short coming of poorer performing students would greatly raise their ability of achieving higher education.
    Only if those students can see the achievement. It's not really an achievement if you're smartest person in a group of under achievers.

  4. #84
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    I don't see a problem with ability segregation WITHIN a school. I have a problem with ability segregation to get INTO a school. That is an important difference.
    I don't agree with that.
    In my experience, being the smart kid in a mixed school, meant you had to endure harassment from the other kids.
    It kept me from going into the somewhat more challenging program.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    I tend to agree. Efforts have been made in public and private schools to combat this problem. It is a significant problem for smaller school districts that do not have the resources to devote significant resources to a handful of children. That would be true in private or public schools.
    Now I would agree with that, more rural areas would find it more challenging, but I still think it's worth a try.
    It doesn't mean that mixed ability schools won't develop, especially in rural areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    That should be ONE of the goals.
    Learning and high order thinking should be the goal, that's all tied to high achievement.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    It is difficult to get lower performing students to achieve higher goals with competition. If the lower performing students are relegated to the only schools that will accept them while the higher achieving students are funneled to private schools, it destroys the internal competition motivations.

    Yes and no. Specialization is important, but it is also important to realize that some students need the challenge of schools they cannot get into.

    Only if those students can see the achievement. It's not really an achievement if you're smartest person in a group of under achievers.
    Well, I don't think the lower performing students should be competing in the traditional sense.

    I think the schools should, identify the short coming, group students of similar deficiency and address those students until the deficiency is relieved.

    It may be inherent in the child, it may be a misunderstanding of the child or it may be poor parental performance during the pre admission to schooling.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #85
    User OhReally?'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    04-10-11 @ 01:08 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    129

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't agree with that.
    In my experience, being the smart kid in a mixed school, meant you had to endure harassment from the other kids.
    It kept me from going into the somewhat more challenging program.
    I understand your concern. However, that experience was an important part of your development as well. It was of mine.


    Now I would agree with that, more rural areas would find it more challenging, but I still think it's worth a try.
    It doesn't mean that mixed ability schools won't develop, especially in rural areas.
    It may be worth a try, but again, on a level playing field. If you don't level the playing field to create fair competition between the schools, you are creating a "false" achievement system.

    Learning and high order thinking should be the goal, that's all tied to high achievement.
    Those are again, some of the goals.

    Well, I don't think the lower performing students should be competing in the traditional sense.

    I think the schools should, identify the short coming, group students of similar deficiency and address those students until the deficiency is relieved.

    It may be inherent in the child, it may be a misunderstanding of the child or it may be poor parental performance during the pre admission to schooling.
    What's good for the goose is good for the gander correct? How do you expect these children to succeed if they aren't competing with higher achieving students?

  6. #86
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    01-18-13 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,631

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    First, you cannot compare financial aid for college to basic funding for primary and secondary schools.
    Mayor Snorkum just did. That's because financial aid is a voucher system. You may not like it, but in all honesty, that's what it is.


    They are two different animals.
    No. They're both means of distributing taxpayer dollars to the individual student's preferred educational institution.

    College is not mandatory while primary/secondary education is.
    So? Makes no difference.

    Because college is not mandatory, they are permitted to set standards for entrance.
    And that's an arbritary position to hold. You've failed to provide any reason why lower echelon schools should not require academic standards for entrance. Used to be a time when the academic standard for getting into the fourth grade was actually passing the third grade, and not every student did that. Now, every student passes the third grade whether they learned anything or not, and we see people decrying the existence of academic standards.

    As Mayor Snorkum noted in a more recent post, competition for entrance will be the best thing to happen on the American educational scene since Thomas Jefferson correctly pointed out that the Federal Government is not allowed by the Constitution to spend money on education.

    Since when has competition been bad? In education it will ensure students are placed in with their academic peers. That means a child reading The Lord of the Rings in the sixth grade won't have to be slowed down in a "Language Arts" class with students struggling with the complexities of a Beverly Cleary novel.

    That also means that students struggling with Beverly Clearly will be with their peers and the teacher's efforts can be more focused on that particular achievement level.

    Clearly beneficial all the way around, that competition stuff.

    And colleges DO discriminate on sex and religion.
    So? Hillary's alma mater, Wellesley, was sooooo evil, wasn't it? Explain why that should not be allowed on the high school level when you've just admitted that it's allowed on the college voucher level. Fact of the matter is that such bizarre sociopathic anamolies are just that, anomalous, and hence rare and inconsequential. In the year 2011 the only group to use the word "coed" are the pornographers.

    Then again, it's amazing, isn't it, that Catholic high schools don't teach about Allah, but their schools outperform the union operated schools.. It's a voucher. It's for the student to determine how to use it, not the elitist snobs who's desire to control American public schools has turned them into the most embarassin institutions in the industrialized world.

  7. #87
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    I understand your concern. However, that experience was an important part of your development as well. It was of mine.
    It encouraged me to drop out as soon as I could.


    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    It may be worth a try, but again, on a level playing field. If you don't level the playing field to create fair competition between the schools, you are creating a "false" achievement system.
    Not really, achievement is an individual affair, not really a group thing, while we may group like with like, it only for the ease of administration.
    The different skills of the individuals would have their work tailored to them and their progress would be managed as such.

    And not just that but for preference of the student, I know we think that all kids need British Lit, but when it was required I thought (and still think) it was entirely useless for me.

    You're not gonna keep kids interested in school as long as it is regimented as it is now.


    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    What's good for the goose is good for the gander correct? How do you expect these children to succeed if they aren't competing with higher achieving students?
    They are trying to achieve their own goals, not bothering with other students.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #88
    User OhReally?'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    04-10-11 @ 01:08 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    129

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Mayor Snorkum just did. That's because financial aid is a voucher system. You may not like it, but in all honesty, that's what it is.
    In a different arena entirely perhaps.

    No. They're both means of distributing taxpayer dollars to the individual student's preferred educational institution.
    On a very foundational level this is true.

    So? Makes no difference.
    It makes EVERY difference.

    And that's an arbritary position to hold. You've failed to provide any reason why lower echelon schools should not require academic standards for entrance. Used to be a time when the academic standard for getting into the fourth grade was actually passing the third grade, and not every student did that. Now, every student passes the third grade whether they learned anything or not, and we see people decrying the existence of academic standards.
    It's not arbitrary, it's based upon the mandatory education requirements under the law.

    As Mayor Snorkum noted in a more recent post, competition for entrance will be the best thing to happen on the American educational scene since Thomas Jefferson correctly pointed out that the Federal Government is not allowed by the Constitution to spend money on education.
    Competition for entrance does not comport with mandatory education requirements. Beyond that, you keep going back to a Constitutional argument when the truth of the matter is that the federal government has very little to do with funding the education of the average student.

    Since when has competition been bad? In education it will ensure students are placed in with their academic peers. That means a child reading The Lord of the Rings in the sixth grade won't have to be slowed down in a "Language Arts" class with students struggling with the complexities of a Beverly Cleary novel.

    That also means that students struggling with Beverly Clearly will be with their peers and the teacher's efforts can be more focused on that particular achievement level.

    Clearly beneficial all the way around, that competition stuff.
    It's perfectly fine to have competition. I believe in competition. It's why I want a level playing field so the competition can really produce results under a mandatory education system.

    So? Hillary's alma mater, Wellesley, was sooooo evil, wasn't it? Explain why that should not be allowed on the high school level when you've just admitted that it's allowed on the college voucher level. Fact of the matter is that such bizarre sociopathic anamolies are just that, anomalous, and hence rare and inconsequential. In the year 2011 the only group to use the word "coed" are the pornographers.

    Then again, it's amazing, isn't it, that Catholic high schools don't teach about Allah, but their schools outperform the union operated schools.. It's a voucher. It's for the student to determine how to use it, not the elitist snobs who's desire to control American public schools has turned them into the most embarassin institutions in the industrialized world.
    This rant has nothing to do with the topic really. Beyond that, I didn't say that discrimination didn't exist on the college level. I proved that it did. However the college level is different than the primary/secondary level because of mandatory education requirements.

  9. #89
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New Orleans
    Last Seen
    05-06-11 @ 07:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    3,082

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    "Instead of actually doing something serious about the public schools we are going to help people avoid the schools instead. "

    Fix the damn school system! No cop outs like vouchers!

  10. #90
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,774

    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    I favor school vouchers. Parents who are not rich should have options for their children other than the failing taxpayer supported schools. As it stands now you have to support both the tax-supported school and the private school if you want your kids to have a choice.

    I realize it's silly to expect the union-organized, lifetime employment tax-supported schools to compete, though.
    You cannot compare a public school to a private school though. Public schools are required, by law, to take all comers. Private schools get to pick and choose which students they take. Public schools very rarely can expel a student permanently, except under the most extreme circumstances. Private schools can kick you out for any reason. Public schools typically have parents who don't give a damn about their kid's education. Private schools, because the parents have to pay out of pocket, have active parents who work with their children to get better grades.

    You can't compare apples and oranges. Put them both on a level playing field and both will perform approximately the same.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •