View Poll Results: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Any religious private school that included religious education/indoctrination.

    0 0%
  • Specific religious private schools that included religious education/indoctrination.

    1 3.33%
  • Religious private school that only use tax dollars for secular education.

    1 3.33%
  • Any religious private school whose education is secular.

    2 6.67%
  • Non-religious private schools.

    6 20.00%
  • I support school vouchers regardless of the type of school.

    8 26.67%
  • I do not support school voucher at all regardless of the private school.

    13 43.33%
  • other/I do not know

    4 13.33%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

  1. #71
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Huh?

    Can't they just build more private schools?
    Why will the quality suffer?

    What is your solution, if not this?
    Of course the can build more schools, but it will drive up the costs. More students and shyster operators will effect quality

    My solution: Don't offer vouchers.

  2. #72
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    I'm fairly new to vouchers, but how/does this differ from a tax break for going to a private school? Ron Paul recently imposed the Education Improvement Tax Cut Act. Homeschoolers and people whose kids are in private school might stand the chance of getting some of their money back if the bill passes, $5000 to be exact.

    Read more: $5000 tax credit for homeschoolers and private schoolers - Politics and Other Controversies -Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Third Parties, Left-Wing, Right-Wing, Congress, President - City-Data Forum
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  3. #73
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Of course the can build more schools, but it will drive up the costs. More students and shyster operators will effect quality

    My solution: Don't offer vouchers.
    What parent would continue to send their kid to a "shyster" operation?

    Cost's are already high for government schools.
    How do you know they won't lower costs?

    Again, what is your solution?
    Don't offer vouchers is a non answer.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What parent would continue to send their kid to a "shyster" operation?

    Cost's are already high for government schools.
    How do you know they won't lower costs?

    Again, what is your solution?
    Don't offer vouchers is a non answer.
    As I stated earlier, offering vouchers is a partial solution that will only work by eliminating admissions requirements.

  5. #75
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by DontDoIt View Post
    I'm fairly new to vouchers, but how/does this differ from a tax break for going to a private school? Ron Paul recently imposed the Education Improvement Tax Cut Act. Homeschoolers and people whose kids are in private school might stand the chance of getting some of their money back if the bill passes, $5000 to be exact.

    Read more: $5000 tax credit for homeschoolers and private schoolers - Politics and Other Controversies -Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Third Parties, Left-Wing, Right-Wing, Congress, President - City-Data Forum
    A tax break allows the wealthy to keep their own money, something the left hates with a passion.

    A voucher allows a peon to spend money due to him on a school he chooses, and freedom of choice is something leftists hate.

    However, the leftists hate giving the peons more freedom more than they hate letting the rich keep a few pennies, because the rich can always be robbed later, but if the peons get a little bit of freedom from the elites, they'll keep wanting more.

  6. #76
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    As I stated earlier, offering vouchers is a partial solution that will only work by eliminating admissions requirements.
    Why would you eliminate admission requirements?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why would you eliminate admission requirements?
    It's not particularly complicated though I can see how many people miss it. It's not the most obvious solution.

    Private schools generally out perform public schools NOT because they are private, but because they are not forced to deal with the same student populations as public schools. When you look at the average test scores from private schools, those scores are based upon the students the schools chose to enroll. Public schools do not have the option of declining to admit a student. Therefore public school test scores will always be lower regardless of the efforts of the staff.

    If we were to institute a voucher system WITHOUT eliminating admissions requirements, we would be creating a system that segregates students based upon achievement and limits internal competition that promotes better results. A school full of gifted and talented students competing against a school with students in remedial reading is not a competition at all.

    Let us also assume for a moment that we move towards a system where all schools are private or charter schools. In such a case, there will be students that both schools refuse to service. Where do those students go? Will there be sufficient funding to create a school for them? Likely not. Students will special academic needs require more money and thus the school would not be profitable and thus no one would want to open it.

    There are dozens of more reasons, but all track back to a level playing field so that competition can work to improve the schools AND meet the needs of students who are not always desired but still have a right to be educated under our mandatory education system.

  8. #78
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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    It's not particularly complicated though I can see how many people miss it. It's not the most obvious solution.

    Private schools generally out perform public schools NOT because they are private, but because they are not forced to deal with the same student populations as public schools. When you look at the average test scores from private schools, those scores are based upon the students the schools chose to enroll. Public schools do not have the option of declining to admit a student. Therefore public school test scores will always be lower regardless of the efforts of the staff.

    If we were to institute a voucher system WITHOUT eliminating admissions requirements, we would be creating a system that segregates students based upon achievement and limits internal competition that promotes better results. A school full of gifted and talented students competing against a school with students in remedial reading is not a competition at all.
    So you think schools that specialize in educating kids of similar ability is bad?

    To me it sounds incredibly efficient and may even improve the lot of the kids who have problems learning.


    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    Let us also assume for a moment that we move towards a system where all schools are private or charter schools. In such a case, there will be students that both schools refuse to service. Where do those students go? Will there be sufficient funding to create a school for them? Likely not. Students will special academic needs require more money and thus the school would not be profitable and thus no one would want to open it.
    That's not likely to happen, money laying idle, someone will have an answer and it will be light years more efficient that what we have today.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    There are dozens of more reasons, but all track back to a level playing field so that competition can work to improve the schools AND meet the needs of students who are not always desired but still have a right to be educated under our mandatory education system.
    I don't think your admissions requirements level it at all, seems to be the same thing we have now but privatized.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    So you think schools that specialize in educating kids of similar ability is bad?

    To me it sounds incredibly efficient and may even improve the lot of the kids who have problems learning.
    I do not think that it is inherently bad. I think the problems that come from created segregated schooling is the real problem.

    That's not likely to happen, money laying idle, someone will have an answer and it will be light years more efficient that what we have today.
    It is likely to happen if we maintain a philosophy that high achievement is the only goal of education.

    I don't think your admissions requirements level it at all, seems to be the same thing we have now but privatized.
    Actually, it forces innovation. If you have two similarly positioned schools and one is out performing the other, it's not because of stacking the deck, it's because of better practices.

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    Re: What kinds of private schools would you support vouchers for?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhReally? View Post
    But why is this true? First it is true that if you cannot pay or do not get a scholarship, you likely will not be attending a private school. Vouchers might change that, however without forcing private schools who accept tax dollars to have an open enrollment policy, you cannot guarantee an improvement in education results for students who are not currently in private schools.
    Mayor Snorkum sees no movement in the public to force what you call "open enrollment" on colleges currently under the voucher system, why would such a silly idea be imposed on high schools and kindergartens? Parents are going to want to choose schools for their children that are better. That means there's going to be competition for seats in the better schools and that means there's going to be, finally, pressure put on the parents to put pressure on their children to learn something and begin preparing themselves for life.

    Believe it or not, competition is a good thing. It's the lack of competititon that's created a lack of excellence in student performance.

    Why can't public schools educate?
    Never mind your answer, it's crap. The reasons public schools won't educate (not can't, won't) is because the elitists have thrown away all the methods proven to work. Mayor Snorkum had the great good fortune to be educated in the sixties by the last generation of real teachers this nation had. Old ladies, who started teaching in the 1930's and 40's. No baloney, Mayor Snorkum knew the first names of all his first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth grade teachers. They were Mrs. Miss. Mrs. Mrs. Mr. and Mr., respectively. They weren't Mayor Snorkum's friends, they were his teachers, and they acted as teachers, not buddies.

    That's one reason.

    The other reason is the TEACHERS taught, using methods proven to work from the 1930's. Phonics, by golly, and those dreaded addition and multiplication tables. We were never allowed to use a calculator. That they didn't exist isn't relevant.

    And most importantly of all, they didn't give a rat's behind about our feelings or our pride or any other nonsense. They had the maturity to know that pride comes with accomplishment, so they did their best to make sure we accomplished something, and if we didn't accomplish what we were supposed to, they didn't make the mistake of sending us on to the next grade. Failure was the biggest shame of all.

    100% of all Mayor Snorkum's classmates learned how to read. 100% 100% could do the class requirements in math. Our time in class was spent learning, not playing. There was very little free unstructured time, and we spent more hours in school then that they do today.

    Going back to the basics. Increasing the length of time spent in school to what it used to be. Demanding performance from the students, refusin to pass those that won't perform. That's what works.

    That's how education will be improved and that's the only way education will be improved.

    You are making the assumption that private schools will take students. Again, they are not required to do so. Until that point your assertion is merely hoping that things will change.
    Well, naturally private schools will never accept more students than they have today. After all, accepting more students would mean increased revenues and greater profits for those schools. Why the hell would they ever want more students?

    Not exactly. Again without putting private schools on an equal playing field, none of this will happen. Beyond that, you are leaving students who's parents cannot pay the difference to languish in the public system.
    Well, you mean parents might gain an incentive to work more effectively and earn more money to get their kids in schools where they can learn something? That's an awful thing to require parents to do.

    Outside of that, right now parents don't have any choice at all, and Mayor Snorkum does not see how vouchers or any other alternative to ending the near monopoly the government has on the children's minds is worse then the current situation in which children are trapped in a system that treats them as nothing more than cash counters in a union driven power game.

    Mayor Snorkum taught his fifth grader algebra, becuase that was simpler than the ridiculously complicated nonsense she was being fed in school. Mayor Snorkum encouraged her to read The Hobbit, and now she's reading hte Lord of the Rings, in the sixth grade, because the public schools suck and the best are held back. No vouchers here, just work at home. She's approaching the end of The Fellowship of the Ring and has become aware of how crappy the movie rendition of the characters really was. And she hasn't even discovered the real Faramir, yet.

    No way can we continue to allow public schools, infested with unions, to hold American children hostage.

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