View Poll Results: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

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12. You may not vote on this poll
  • Teachers

    3 25.00%
  • Firemen

    3 25.00%
  • policemen

    3 25.00%
  • janitors employed by the state or city

    0 0%
  • dog catcher/animal control officer

    1 8.33%
  • meter maids

    0 0%
  • receptionist/secretaries working for the city or state

    0 0%
  • other tax payer funded employees

    0 0%
  • All tax payer funded employees should be allowed to go through "trial de nova"

    0 0%
  • No tax payer funded employees should be allowed to go through "trial de nova"

    8 66.67%
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Thread: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

  1. #11
    Sage

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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    As I said, every employee, not just police/fire/teachers/whatever, is going to be fired for "political reasons" just exactly like that. That's my point. An employee risks being fired any time they come out in an appropriate way against their superiors -- or company policy. What makes these groups different?
    As I said, no ****. No **** = that's obvious.

    In any case, your question is invalid because it assumes that I believe people in the private sector shouldn't have due process. Unfortunately, I believe that certain professions should (and they might, I'm not sure). In other words, "these groups" aren't different because I believe due process for certain professions in both the private sector and public sector could benefit employees and the public as a whole.

  2. #12
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    As I said, no ****. No **** = that's obvious.

    In any case, your question is invalid because it assumes that I believe people in the private sector shouldn't have due process. Unfortunately, I believe that certain professions should (and they might, I'm not sure). In other words, "these groups" aren't different because I believe due process for certain professions in both the private sector and public sector could benefit employees and the public as a whole.
    Can't employees sue if they have been fired for merely speaking out against a supervisor, company policy or upper management? Why should these professions have extra rights over other professions? Should a Janitor,cashier, grocery stalker or tire changer at walmart be able to go to a judge a with Walmat footing the bill to see if proper procedures were followed in their firing? because who knows that cashier, Janitor, grocery stalker or tire changer may have criticized Walmart policy and was unjustly fired because of it.

    Drunk teachers, abusive police officers and lazy firemen are easy to spot.
    Its not a matter of spotting them, its a matter of actually firing them instead of passing them on to another school or district.

    LAUSD's Dance of the Lemons - Page 1 - News - Los Angeles - LA Weekly

    The Matt Lang story: The Dance of the Dirty Lemon

    The Dance of the Lemons | Hoover Institution
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #13
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Can't employees sue if they have been fired for merely speaking out against a supervisor, company policy or upper management? Why should these professions have extra rights over other professions? Should a Janitor,cashier, grocery stalker or tire changer at walmart be able to go to a judge a with Walmat footing the bill to see if proper procedures were followed in their firing? because who knows that cashier, Janitor, grocery stalker or tire changer may have criticized Walmart policy and was unjustly fired because of it.



    Its not a matter of spotting them, its a matter of actually firing them instead of passing them on to another school or district.

    LAUSD's Dance of the Lemons - Page 1 - News - Los Angeles - LA Weekly

    The Matt Lang story: The Dance of the Dirty Lemon

    The Dance of the Lemons | Hoover Institution
    I never said anything about janitors and cashiers. I gave very specific people: teachers, police officers and firefighters. For the private sector, I would say doctors, lawyers and probably others that I can't think of.

    As far as your question "Why should these professions have extra rights over other professions?" I evaluate the professions who I believe could benefit from due process based on 1. The grey area surrounding the responsibility they have for negative results (i.e. is a teacher responsible for poor scores of students particularly when that teacher is given all the worst performing students or the neighborhood is low-performing in general). 2. The effect an inappropriate firing would have on the public (i.e. good police officers fired - community less safe).

    Sure they can sue and people (teachers, police officers, etc.) have done that in the past, but it's better from my perspective to not let it get to point where a good officer or doctor is stopped from doing their job and has to file a lawsuit. We might as well stop it before it happens. Moreover, the fact that reasons for firings will be evaluated is a good deterrent for firing people based on arbitrary reasons.

    From my perspective, the grey area and effects are great enough in the professions I have specified to warrant due process.

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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I never said anything about janitors and cashiers. I gave very specific people: teachers, police officers and firefighters. For the private sector, I would say doctors, lawyers and probably others that I can't think of.

    As far as your question "Why should these professions have extra rights over other professions?" I evaluate the professions who I believe could benefit from due process based on 1. The grey area surrounding the responsibility they have for negative results (i.e. is a teacher responsible for poor scores of students particularly when that teacher is given all the worst performing students or the neighborhood is low-performing in general). 2. The effect an inappropriate firing would have on the public (i.e. good police officers fired - community less safe).

    Sure they can sue and people (teachers, police officers, etc.) have done that in the past, but it's better from my perspective to not let it get to point where a good officer or doctor is stopped from doing their job and has to file a lawsuit. We might as well stop it before it happens. Moreover, the fact that reasons for firings will be evaluated is a good deterrent for firing people based on arbitrary reasons.

    From my perspective, the grey area and effects are great enough in the professions I have specified to warrant due process.
    And you're missing the point that a job is a position held open at the whim, the sheerest whim, of the employer. A job is not a human right.

  5. #15
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    3. Political firings - Person X comes out either against an administrator or policy, person X is fired.
    Not a political firing. People who can't keep their mouths shut and respect their employer should have the decency to leave their position before they shoot their mouths off. Under no circumstances should an employer, public or private, be required to keep on the payroll anyone who publicly disagrees with policy.

    Here's a hint, if you're missing it:

    A teacher is paid to teach, their opinions are not value added.

    A cop is paid to arrest criminals. If he has a problem with that, then he can be replaced.

    A fireman is a guy that holds a hose. That's pretty much it, except for the truck driver and the guy paid to flip the switch on the siren. Again, if they can't stay focused on their job, their opinions are not value added and, again, they have no right to a job, all jobs exist at the whim of the people writing the checks.

    It would be a shame to lose great teachers, policemen and firemen to B.S. firings and due process makes it easier to prevent them.
    What is a real shame is that crappy public employees can't be fired. For example, every single Wisconsin teacher that turned in a bogus sick note collected on the street while engaged in political action should be fired, summarily, immediately, and without any form of separation package. Ditto that for the cops and firemen doing the same thing.

    They may or may not be 'good' teachers. They're bad employees.

  6. #16
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    And you're missing the point that a job is a position held open at the whim, the sheerest whim, of the employer. A job is not a human right.
    I agree. Which is why I'm not arguing that people should never be fired.

  7. #17
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Not a political firing. People who can't keep their mouths shut and respect their employer should have the decency to leave their position before they shoot their mouths off.
    If by respect, you mean watch students go to school in unsafe environments and watch policymakers implement policies that obviously hurt education without saying anything, then we have nothing to talk about. Maybe that's how you were raised, but I wasn't raised to keep my mouth shut around bull****.

  8. #18
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD
    You can't be fired because of race, religion sex, family status and a variety of other reasons.
    This is rather naive. I've fired people for every one of those reasons, multiple times. It's quite easy to avoid ever being sued for it.

  9. #19
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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    This is rather naive. I've fired people for every one of those reasons, multiple times. It's quite easy to avoid ever being sued for it.
    interesting-I have handled a couple hundred Title VII or ADEA cases. its rather hard to get away with that.



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    Re: Which tax payer funded employee should go through a "trial de nova" when fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    If by respect, you mean watch students go to school in unsafe environments and watch policymakers implement policies that obviously hurt education without saying anything, then we have nothing to talk about. Maybe that's how you were raised, but I wasn't raised to keep my mouth shut around bull****.
    If by respect I mean that when you have to cite violations of law to make your point you didn't understand mine. Also, there are laws in government to protect whistleblowers.

    Finally, anyone who wishes to work at places you describe doesn't have any self-respect, so why expect them to respect anything? If they don't call out their employer for safety violations out of fear of losing their job, they certainlly don't deserve special consideration.

    The policies all policy makers make these days that are harmful to the education of the young are all biased in favor of the teachers unions and the management.

    Protecting bad teachers from dismissal...harmful policy.
    Tenure...harmful policy.
    Keeping the child with his age-based peer group...harmful policy.
    Not expelling criminal students....harmful policy.
    "Mainstreaming" those with learning disabilities...harmful policy.

    It certainly is funny how the socialist mantra about sacrificing to create the greatest good for the greatest number is applied in reverse when it comes to public education. Everyone of the above policies harms far more students than it benefits.

    You want to fix education? I mean really really fix it?

    Start using the letter "F" on report cards.

    Start telling children who get "F"s that they're not passing to the next grade until they've mastered this one.

    Start telling children who won't stop disrupting class that a special class has been set up, just for them, so all the thugs can victimize each other and the students can start learning.

    Literacy requires reading and writing. In ENGLISH, not "Language Arts". In other words, since the basics work, go back to the basics. The BS doesn't work, require that all teachers wanting to teach the BS do it to their own kids, instead.

    Math requires pencil, paper. That's it. No fingers (teachers teach first and second graders how to count on their fingers. Mayor Snorkum taught his kids how to count on their fingers too. But the Mayor's girls can count to 4095 on their fingers, if they remember to count one fist as 2^10 and the other as 2^11). DEFINITELY NO CALCULATORS. Only ignorant people show kids how to use calculators to solve algebra problems. They never learn how to factor, and they come out stupid, like their teachers.

    Start telling teachers who can't teach that the greater good of the school requires them to be transferred to the custodial staff, with, naturally, a commensurate cut in wages .

    Start requiring teachers to spend more time in the class room. They can stop pretending it's hard work and they can start spending nine hours a day at work, just like the parents paying their salaries.

    Make school administrators represent the school district, not the teachers unions.

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