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Tax cuts or balance budget

What is more important?

  • A balanced budget (no growth in debt)

    Votes: 39 88.6%
  • Tax cuts

    Votes: 5 11.4%

  • Total voters
    44
Whats interesting is that almost everyone wants a balanced budget over tax cuts but all we have are tax cuts and no real chance for a balanced budget without higher taxes.

until most people get zapped with higher taxes every time the government spends recklessly, the malignancy will continue. Taxing the rich more will only encourage vote buying of the many by dem politicians
 
I've never made more than $50,000 annually and not having a mortgage interest deduction would have been a hardship on me.





Yes, that is what health care reform was about.


in other words you aren't paying your share of the federal government yet you spend much of your time on this board whining that those of us who pay more taxes in a quarter than what you earn in a year need to pay more
 
in other words you aren't paying your share of the federal government yet you spend much of your time on this board whining that those of us who pay more taxes in a quarter than what you earn in a year need to pay more

I thought you would show up soon to brag about how superior you think you are. :sun
 
That depends what you consider a dramatic swing in tax revenues

from 91% to 35%. yeah, i'd call that a dramatic swing; and yet tax revenue as a percentage of GDP didn't budge.

No, we aren't going to double tax revenues, but that isn't the point

as a percentage of GDP, we are unlikely to even budget it by more than 1/18th.

Even if we can increase the tax revenue by 1% of GDP, that's $150 billion. Nothing to sneeze at.

correct. now, looking back at the historical data i've provided, tell me; what has been the best path to produce that resut?

Since we're currently collecting about 16% of our GDP in taxes, if we could just get that back to the historical average of 19% by raising taxes, that gives us an extra half trillion, which would solve approximately 1/3 of the current deficit.

not to quibble, but even 19 would be a little above the historical norm. but if we want to get back to that then we need to reduce government expenditures and maintain lower tax rates. tax simplification would probably help, too.
 
What Madoff did was illegal. SS is not.

only because it's the government doing it. anyone else would go to jail for running a ponzi scheme.
 
from 91% to 35%. yeah, i'd call that a dramatic swing; and yet tax revenue as a percentage of GDP didn't budge.

The tax revenue has fluctuated by several percentage points over the years, which translates to hundreds of billions of dollars.

cpwill said:
as a percentage of GDP, we are unlikely to even budget it by more than 1/18th.

Our tax revenue has been as low as 15% of GDP (last year) or as high as 21% of GDP. The difference between the two, in dollar amounts, is huge. Why do you think it can't move more than 1/18%?

cpwill said:
correct. now, looking back at the historical data i've provided, tell me; what has been the best path to produce that resut?

Federal+Tax+Revenue.jpg


The best path to produce higher revenues...hmm. Well, it looks to me like the biggest jump coincided with Clinton's tax hikes, and the biggest drop coincided with Bush's tax cuts.

cpwill said:
not to quibble, but even 19 would be a little above the historical norm. but if we want to get back to that then we need to reduce government expenditures

Government expenditures have increased every year since 1965 yet, going back to the chart again, tax revenues have stayed in the 15-21% band. So what makes you think that reducing expenditures will generate revenue? Even from a theoretical perspective...why would it?

cpwill said:
and maintain lower tax rates.

There is no evidence that lower tax rates will generate revenue, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

cpwill said:
tax simplification would probably help, too.

I agree.
 
I thought you would show up soon to brag about how superior you think you are. :sun


your reading skills need work. I am not necessarily superior to someone who makes less as a person. However, as a tax payer I am certainly superior to you and I tire of slackers demanding we who already pay to subsidize the sloth of others are told we need to pay even more
 
your reading skills need work. I am not necessarily superior to someone who makes less as a person. However, as a tax payer I am certainly superior to you and I tire of slackers demanding we who already pay to subsidize the sloth of others are told we need to pay even more

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but wealth in general is impossible to accumulate without government protectionism of some form or another. You can't make money "in spite" of economic policy and law, unless you are a criminal.
 
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I'm not sure what you do for a living, but wealth in general is impossible to accumulate without government protectionism of some form or another. You can't make money "in spite" of economic policy and law, unless you are a criminal.

that is not responsive. the government doesn't give me any extra benefits. and rich people have other means of protecting their wealth. Like taking out a contract on someone who rips them off. a few years ago some hacker seriously F-d up some company's data base. the company found the kid before the FBI did--garroted. last I heard the FBI couldn't prove who did the piano wire job on that hacker but no one ever hacked that company again
 
only because it's the government doing it. anyone else would go to jail for running a ponzi scheme.

Not a believer in the rule of law I see.
 
Not a believer in the rule of law I see.

slavery was the law

the "Final Solution" was the law

law is a tool not a god
 
your reading skills need work. I am not necessarily superior to someone who makes less as a person. However, as a tax payer I am certainly superior to you and I tire of slackers demanding we who already pay to subsidize the sloth of others are told we need to pay even more

I paid a bigger percentage of my income in taxes last year than some multi-national companies and billionaires so don't talk to me about slackers.
 
slavery was the law

the "Final Solution" was the law

law is a tool not a god

We are Nazi Germany now? They were a Fascists, you keep claiming we are socialists and our parents were communists.

Back in the real world, I believe in the rule of law. I find it interesting though that someone that pretends to be a lawyer would let it slip that you do not believe in the rule of law. LOL!
 
I paid a bigger percentage of my income in taxes last year than some multi-national companies and billionaires so don't talk to me about slackers.

more bs you don't pay a higher rate of tax on like income than people like me. and more importantly you don't pay near the same dollars as I do. if i am a merchant i don't care how much of your income it takes to buy my product-a rich man who pays full price is far more helpful than some guy who claims he ought to get a 50% discount because his income is less.

a billionaire citizen of the USA domiciled here pays more income tax than 50 million Americans. and that billionaire certainly doesn't use as much government resources as those 50 million
 
We are Nazi Germany now? They were a Fascists, you keep claiming we are socialists and our parents were communists.

Back in the real world, I believe in the rule of law. I find it interesting though that someone that pretends to be a lawyer would let it slip that you do not believe in the rule of law. LOL!

why do the weak minded constantly claim I am not an attorney when others have schooled them on such stupidity?

Some laws are good some laws are bad-worshiping a law merely because it was enacted is the sign of a fool
 
a billionaire citizen of the USA domiciled here pays more income tax than 50 million Americans. and that billionaire certainly doesn't use as much government resources as those 50 million

The top tax class owns 80% of the wealth, so in a fair tax system, they would pay 80% of the taxes.
 
Some laws are good some laws are bad-worshiping a law merely because it was enacted is the sign of a fool

As determined by you, not the supreme court right? LOL!
 
The top tax class owns 80% of the wealth, so in a fair tax system, they would pay 80% of the taxes.

that's really stupid as usual

taxes should be levied based on what you use just like every other service. and a tax on wealth is moronic though it appeals to ne'er do wells who are mad that they are failures
 
As determined by you, not the supreme court right? LOL!

I am glad you support the USSC rulings on gun rights and corporations being able to spend what they want on campaigns
 
The tax revenue has fluctuated by several percentage points over the years, which translates to hundreds of billions of dollars.

actually tax revenue has stayed within an amazingly tight set of parameters; not really straying (with our current notable exception) more than 2 points away from the mean. look at your own chart man; a drop in tax rates from 91 to 35 percent saw a drop in tax revenue of only 2% of GDP. and then the revenue went back up. claiming static tax estimates have any measure of accuracy is ludicrous.

Our tax revenue has been as low as 15% of GDP (last year) or as high as 21% of GDP

exactly. the largest recession since the great depression combined with the largest deficit spending in history was still only able to shift that thing 3.5 percentage points off the mean

The difference between the two, in dollar amounts, is huge. Why do you think it can't move more than 1/18%?

and it's even bigger when you write it out long-ways. look: $100,000,000,000 (puts pinkie in mouth)

but the fact is, that when we're talking about actual attempts to effect future tax revenues, we need to recognize that those returns will be a function of GDP far more than they will be a function of tax rates. if our goal is to increase revenue, therefore, we must increase GDP


yes. this is the exact same chart i provided earlier, except that you cut out the comparison to tax rates and zoom in to make the fluctuation look bigger.

here:

wsj-tax-revenue-chart-ed-ah556b_ranso_20080519194014.gif


this actually compares the two topics we are discussing, as opposed to showing one all zoomed up and scary-like. now, you look at that chart and you tell me if the fluctuations in the top tax rates match - in a one to one statically scored manner fluctuations in the tax revenues.

well, fluctuations in the tax rate do - in fact - effect fluctuations in the tax revenue. how?

Federal-Personal-Income-Tax-Collections.JPG


Government expenditures have increased every year since 1965 yet, going back to the chart again, tax revenues have stayed in the 15-21% band. So what makes you think that reducing expenditures will generate revenue? Even from a theoretical perspective...why would it?

you are moving money from less efficient allocations to more effecient allocations. once you are willing to accept the assumption that communism does not work as well as the free market when it comes to the efficient allocation of resources, it becomes virtually tautological.

There is no evidence that lower tax rates will generate revenue, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

actually it virtually always does; it just depends on what your time horizon is.
 
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If you had to pick one or the other, which one is more important?

Neither. The most important thing is to cut government spending. That would have the best effect on the economy, more so than either tax cuts or a balanced budget. If spending is cut, the budget will soon be balanced.

Tax restructuring would be good. We have too many exemptions, deductions, exceptions, etc. Lower rates but fewer exceptions could even raise revenue which, considering where we are, might be good. Care would be needed to not retard economic growth, but that should be achievable.
 
actually tax revenue has stayed within an amazingly tight set of parameters; not really straying (with our current notable exception) more than 2 points away from the mean. look at your own chart man; a drop in tax rates from 91 to 35 percent saw a drop in tax revenue of only 2% of GDP. and then the revenue went back up. claiming static tax estimates have any measure of accuracy is ludicrous.

exactly. the largest recession since the great depression combined with the largest deficit spending in history was still only able to shift that thing 3.5 percentage points off the mean

and it's even bigger when you write it out long-ways. look: $100,000,000,000 (puts pinkie in mouth)

You continue to brush aside a swing of a few percentage points as no big deal, when in fact it IS a big deal. It translates into hundreds of billions of dollars. That is a sizable chunk of change, even for the federal government. Our current deficit is about $1.5 trillion, for comparison.

cpwill said:
but the fact is, that when we're talking about actual attempts to effect future tax revenues, we need to recognize that those returns will be a function of GDP far more than they will be a function of tax rates. if our goal is to increase revenue, therefore, we must increase GDP

The unspoken assumption here, of course, is that cutting taxes is inherently the path to the fastest-growing GDP as opposed to alternate ways to grow GDP. Again, the historical data does not support this conclusion.

cpwill said:
yes. this is the exact same chart i provided earlier, except that you cut out the comparison to tax rates and zoom in to make the fluctuation look bigger.

Let's rephrase that: It's the exact same chart you provided earlier, except that in your chart it's zoomed out to an absurd 0-100% range, thus obscuring the meaningful differences that actually ARE taking place in tax revenue over time. No one is talking about doubling our tax revenue by increasing taxes, so this comparison is meaningless.

cpwill said:
this actually compares the two topics we are discussing, as opposed to showing one all zoomed up and scary-like. now, you look at that chart and you tell me if the fluctuations in the top tax rates match - in a one to one statically scored manner fluctuations in the tax revenues.

Why does it matter if they match? What does that prove? The important thing is that tax revenues (in dollars) do indeed fluctuate dramatically over time.

cpwill said:
well, fluctuations in the tax rate do - in fact - effect fluctuations in the tax revenue. how?

Federal-Personal-Income-Tax-Collections.JPG

All this chart shows is that a tax rate below 82% since 1964 is correlated to faster growth than a tax rate above 82% before 1964. I'm unaware of anyone who has suggested raising tax rates to 82%. If you are trying to draw some broader conclusion from this it isn't going to work because there's ALWAYS going to be some tax rate between 0-100% that maximizes revenue. This indicates that it's probably below 82% but it hardly leads to the conclusion "Tax cuts are always good." If that were the case, then we could maximize tax revenue by not collecting any taxes at all.

cpwill said:
you are moving money from less efficient allocations to more effecient allocations. once you are willing to accept the assumption that communism does not work as well as the free market when it comes to the efficient allocation of resources, it becomes virtually tautological.

Well I guess if your only two options for an economy are Ayn Rand or Joseph Stalin, and don't allow for anything in the middle that might be superior to both... :roll:
But in the real world, there are plenty of times when the government allocates more efficiently than the private sector, and there are plenty of times when the private sector allocates more efficiently than the government.

cpwill said:
actually it virtually always does; it just depends on what your time horizon is.

Over a large enough time horizon you can "prove" just about anything you want with statistics. But there is almost no evidence that tax cuts are correlated with stronger economic growth over any reasonable time frame. It's true that in a vacuum, lower taxes would be superior to higher taxes. But policy is not made in a vacuum. There are three major levers of the government's balance sheet: Spending, taxes, and deficits. If you dial down the tax lever (at least from our present rate), it means you have to turn up the deficit or dial down the spending lever. So it's a question of which combination of spending/taxes/deficits are best for economic growth.
 
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