View Poll Results: Who won the Vietnam War?

Voters
156. You may not vote on this poll
  • The French

    2 1.28%
  • The British

    1 0.64%
  • The Americans

    9 5.77%
  • The Canadians

    2 1.28%
  • The Chinese

    4 2.56%
  • The Russians

    4 2.56%
  • The Japanese

    0 0%
  • The Vietnamese

    71 45.51%
  • No one

    44 28.21%
  • Other

    19 12.18%
Page 31 of 41 FirstFirst ... 212930313233 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 310 of 407

Thread: Who won the Vietnam War?

  1. #301
    Guru
    celticwar17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:28 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    4,898

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    1) liberty means different things to different people. Although perhaps misguided, many Vietnamese saw Communism/socialism as a way to free themselves from what they viewed as the oppressive imperialist presence of the French, and later the United States. In their eyes, Communism WAS a chance at freedom. In addition, the vast majority of Communist movements throughout history have been nationalistic in character first and foremost. For the most part they were nationalists first, Communists second.

    2) communism doesn't necessarily mean authoritarianism. It depends at what scale, and how, it is being implemented.
    I have the same problem with Nationalism.. it tends to deny Liberty as well for the countries interest.

    I may be the only one, but i think individual liberty is the ultimate goal in no matter what society. And a lot of the Vietnamese were misled by Communist.

    But anyway, Im not gonna really comment on all the different variations on communism, but communism, as it was originally created, takes away it's citizen's right to property, and i am unaware of any other communist variance that doesn't do that and is still considered communism... therefore it is evil by issuing a contract no human can morally sign.
    Last edited by celticwar17; 04-05-11 at 01:29 AM.

  2. #302
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I have the same problem with Nationalism.. it tends to deny Liberty as well for the countries interest.

    I may be the only one, but i think individual liberty is the ultimate goal in no matter what society. And a lot of the Vietnamese were misled by Communist.

    But anyway, Im not gonna really comment on all the different variations on communism, but communism, as it was originally created, takes away it's citizen's right to property, and i am unaware of any other communist variance that doesn't do that and is still considered communism... therefore it is evil by issuing a contract no human can morally sign.
    I agree with everything you've said here, but in the end I disagree with the notion that the denial of liberty necessarily = evil. In that case my parents would be evil...basically all monarchies throughout history would be evil, etc.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-05-11 at 11:56 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  3. #303
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I agree with everything you've said here, but in the end I disagree with the notion that the denial of liberty necessarily = evil. In that case my parents would be evil...basically all monarchies throughout history would be evil, etc.
    You parents ran a concentration camp? They had prisoners?

    All monarchies denied people their liberty?

    Rod Serling lives!

  4. #304
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,547

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Actually there were thousands, millions, who promoted Communism and many who not only tried to implement it but did.

    It was the most imperialist and murderous movement in world history, and one that shames the human race.
    Yes, and now it's dead, resting in the dustbin of history, despite the fact that the US lost the war in Vietnam that was supposedly about fighting Communism. Not only that, but the Vietnamese went on to put an end to the murderous Pol Pot and his Khymer Rouge (meaning red, i.e. Communistic) in Cambodia. So, what are we to conclude from that? Were the Vietnamese really a part of the threat of Communism? Why, exactly, were we fighting the non war in Vietnam?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  5. #305
    Professor

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Grand Junction, CO 81506
    Last Seen
    05-30-11 @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,236

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badfish420 View Post
    well, your right to a certain extent. communism as described by Marx is actually a global movement, any nationalistic communist revolutions should be called socialist. and your dead on about the vietnamese looking at communism as a chance at freedom, because all they had ever known was foreign imperial oppression.
    Very good... It applies to all people living under a cruel, oppressive dictator, king, emperor, president, or whatever they want to call themselves, and it doesn't really matter what they call the new way of life.

    Problem is all people need leadership, and no matter who takes the place of the old despot, the next one may be just as bad or even worse.

    Power always corrupts, but some are less opportunistic as others.

    The only solution is to run every country with computer programs, throw out all the old law precedents, use common sense, give everyone the same slice of the pie to start with and hope history doesn't repeat itself.

    ricksfolly

  6. #306
    Advisor Badfish420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MA, USA
    Last Seen
    07-18-11 @ 03:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    411

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The Vietnamese looked at Communism as a chance at freedom??? Who says? Certainly not any Vietnamese I've ever heard!

    You think Communism wasn't "imperial oppression"? Or that it worse under the French?

    The Boat People certainly didn't see any freedom, not did the millions murdered and imprisoned by the communists.
    first of all this is just history, many vietnamese, like most of the people in other situations looked at communism enthusiastically because of one of two reasons or both, years of imperial colonization and vast poverty. why do you think the south vietnamese terrorists were such a problem for us, because the support for Ho Chi Min was so great. second, yes is it was better than french imperial rule, because even if there is terrible conditions, it was ruled by vietnamese, not foreign powers which is what most vietnamese wanted. thats why the communist movement could have also been described as a nationalist movement. they wanted to unite north and south and govern themselves not an imperial power or a west-backed stooge.
    'I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil.' - Bobby Kennedy

  7. #307
    Advisor Badfish420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MA, USA
    Last Seen
    07-18-11 @ 03:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    411

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In my recollection the only individual in history who actively tried to promote and implement Communism as an international movement was Che Guevara. The vast majority of other Communist leaders in history were nationalists first and foremost. I disagree that those movements should be called socialist rather than Communist, however. Just because they weren't exactly Marxist in nature doesn't mean that they weren't Communist.
    nope, communism in theory is a global movement, and is one of the key distinctions between communism and socialism. also one of the things about communism that has been lost in translation from its original theory. why do u think the soviet union was so hell bent on absorbing their neighbors and seeding its influence over the world?
    'I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil.' - Bobby Kennedy

  8. #308
    Basketball Nerd
    StillBallin75's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Vilseck, Germany
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:52 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    21,896

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badfish420 View Post
    nope, communism in theory is a global movement, and is one of the key distinctions between communism and socialism. also one of the things about communism that has been lost in translation from its original theory. why do u think the soviet union was so hell bent on absorbing their neighbors and seeding its influence over the world?
    That's precisely it. IN THEORY. Hasn't always been the case in practice. As for why the USSR was so hell bent on absorbing their neighbors etc. It's what happens when you're a superpower, and the used Communist ideology to justify it. But at the end of the day, it was all about realpolitik.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-07-11 at 08:21 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #309
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Yes, and now it's dead, resting in the dustbin of history, despite the fact that the US lost the war in Vietnam that was supposedly about fighting Communism. Not only that, but the Vietnamese went on to put an end to the murderous Pol Pot and his Khymer Rouge (meaning red, i.e. Communistic) in Cambodia. So, what are we to conclude from that? Were the Vietnamese really a part of the threat of Communism? Why, exactly, were we fighting the non war in Vietnam?
    In fact the Viet Cong were receiving support from both Communist China and the USSR. Viet Nam was a part of the Cold War, and one of it's many battles. As it turned out the Communists murdered many times more people than the anti Communists ever did.

  10. #310
    Advisor Badfish420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MA, USA
    Last Seen
    07-18-11 @ 03:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    411

    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    In fact the Viet Cong were receiving support from both Communist China and the USSR. Viet Nam was a part of the Cold War, and one of it's many battles. As it turned out the Communists murdered many times more people than the anti Communists ever did.
    look we can talk all day about who killed more but either way the commie brutes and the american backed fascists were both terrible regimes. its not like the communists were any better or worse, the point is it wasnt our fight and we got involved, which many claim is one of the reasons why the victors were so brutal when they rolled into saigon and imposed their rule, if we had left them to self determine from the time the french were ousted it could have turned out differently.
    'I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil.' - Bobby Kennedy

Page 31 of 41 FirstFirst ... 212930313233 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •