View Poll Results: Who won the Vietnam War?

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  • The French

    2 1.28%
  • The British

    1 0.64%
  • The Americans

    9 5.77%
  • The Canadians

    2 1.28%
  • The Chinese

    4 2.56%
  • The Russians

    4 2.56%
  • The Japanese

    0 0%
  • The Vietnamese

    71 45.51%
  • No one

    44 28.21%
  • Other

    19 12.18%
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Thread: Who won the Vietnam War?

  1. #291
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    No i think it is evil because it denies Liberty.
    1) liberty means different things to different people. Although perhaps misguided, many Vietnamese saw Communism/socialism as a way to free themselves from what they viewed as the oppressive imperialist presence of the French, and later the United States. In their eyes, Communism WAS a chance at freedom. In addition, the vast majority of Communist movements throughout history have been nationalistic in character first and foremost. For the most part they were nationalists first, Communists second.

    2) communism doesn't necessarily mean authoritarianism. It depends at what scale, and how, it is being implemented.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 04-03-11 at 10:57 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #292
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    No i think it is evil because it denies Liberty.
    Some cultures can't seem to handle liberty. Greed and self interest end up destroying it.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    The Vietnam War should rightly be called a 'battle' as it was a part of the Cold War.

    The Americans won the Cold War and, after murdering and enslaving over a hundred million people, the god-damned Communists lost.

  4. #294
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The Vietnam War should rightly be called a 'battle' as it was a part of the Cold War.

    The Americans won the Cold War and, after murdering and enslaving over a hundred million people, the god-damned Communists lost.
    Yes, they did. Communism is dead, long may it stay dead.

    Authoritarianism is still alive, but has been taking some losses of late, even in the Middle East.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  5. #295
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    1) liberty means different things to different people. Although perhaps misguided, many Vietnamese saw Communism/socialism as a way to free themselves from what they viewed as the oppressive imperialist presence of the French, and later the United States. In their eyes, Communism WAS a chance at freedom. In addition, the vast majority of Communist movements throughout history have been nationalistic in character first and foremost. For the most part they were nationalists first, Communists second.

    2) communism doesn't necessarily mean authoritarianism. It depends at what scale, and how, it is being implemented.
    well, your right to a certain extent. communism as described by Marx is actually a global movement, any nationalistic communist revolutions should be called socialist. and your dead on about the vietnamese looking at communism as a chance at freedom, because all they had ever known was foreign imperial oppression.
    'I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil.' - Bobby Kennedy

  6. #296
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by USA_1 View Post
    Some cultures can't seem to handle liberty. Greed and self interest end up destroying it.
    we have the advantage of being able to juggle both.
    'I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil.' - Bobby Kennedy

  7. #297
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badfish420 View Post
    we have the advantage of being able to juggle both.
    So far...............
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

  8. #298
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badfish420 View Post
    well, your right to a certain extent. communism as described by Marx is actually a global movement, any nationalistic communist revolutions should be called socialist. and your dead on about the vietnamese looking at communism as a chance at freedom, because all they had ever known was foreign imperial oppression.
    In my recollection the only individual in history who actively tried to promote and implement Communism as an international movement was Che Guevara. The vast majority of other Communist leaders in history were nationalists first and foremost. I disagree that those movements should be called socialist rather than Communist, however. Just because they weren't exactly Marxist in nature doesn't mean that they weren't Communist.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  9. #299
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badfish420 View Post
    well, your right to a certain extent. communism as described by Marx is actually a global movement, any nationalistic communist revolutions should be called socialist. and your dead on about the vietnamese looking at communism as a chance at freedom, because all they had ever known was foreign imperial oppression.
    The Vietnamese looked at Communism as a chance at freedom??? Who says? Certainly not any Vietnamese I've ever heard!

    You think Communism wasn't "imperial oppression"? Or that it worse under the French?

    The Boat People certainly didn't see any freedom, not did the millions murdered and imprisoned by the communists.

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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    In my recollection the only individual in history who actively tried to promote and implement Communism as an international movement was Che Guevara. The vast majority of other Communist leaders in history were nationalists first and foremost. I disagree that those movements should be called socialist rather than Communist, however. Just because they weren't exactly Marxist in nature doesn't mean that they weren't Communist.
    Actually there were thousands, millions, who promoted Communism and many who not only tried to implement it but did.

    It was the most imperialist and murderous movement in world history, and one that shames the human race.

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