View Poll Results: Who won the Vietnam War?

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  • The French

    2 1.28%
  • The British

    1 0.64%
  • The Americans

    9 5.77%
  • The Canadians

    2 1.28%
  • The Chinese

    4 2.56%
  • The Russians

    4 2.56%
  • The Japanese

    0 0%
  • The Vietnamese

    71 45.51%
  • No one

    44 28.21%
  • Other

    19 12.18%
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Thread: Who won the Vietnam War?

  1. #171
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Precisely Theory and practice are two very different things. Communism just plain doesn't work because of human nature, it might work if human beings were perfect (in which case they would no longer be human). That doesn't make communist ideology, or people who are communists, evil, it's just that it's a flawed ideology.
    Agreed, although perhaps misguided

  2. #172
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Precisely Theory and practice are two very different things. Communism just plain doesn't work because of human nature, it might work if human beings were perfect (in which case they would no longer be human). That doesn't make communist ideology, or people who are communists, evil, it's just that it's a flawed ideology.
    It does, however, beg the question as to why there are still those who are communists in spite of its dismal failure.

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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Depends on your point of view.

    From a military point of view, the United States won the war.
    By un-occupying the country?

  4. #174
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    It does, however, beg the question as to why there are still those who are communists in spite of its dismal failure.
    You'll have to ask them. I believe some people are just bleeding-heart idealists, even if they know that their own views will not be put in practice.

    For instance I consider myself a democratic socialist in that I believe Scandinavian social democracy to be an example of a society that does a pretty good job of promoting social justice while not stifling economic activity and wealth creation. It doesn't mean that I think such a system will ever be implemented in the US, at least in the near future. It would require drastic cultural and societal change for something like that to happen but it's still an ideal.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  5. #175
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    That's what it sounds like to me. If not then I apologies for jumping the gun, but do you really think the violence would have been less without the U.S. involvement? It seems to me that Communist regimes always have policies of killing those that would oppose them for the Good of the Country and Party.
    Right, they have "a policy of killing those that would oppose them", if the South lose quickly the opposition to the North is lesser and the killing I think is lesser too. Once the purge is finished, the Vietnamese as a country has been able to enjoy quick growth after adopting capitalism. If you go to Vietnam now, it's no worse than say Thailand.

    If I were to say that without American intervention the Taliban might not have come to power in Afghanistan, it doesn't justify the Russian Invasion of that country. The same applies here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  6. #176
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ah, and the south would have collapsed much quicker to the victorious nothern communists.

    like in China.

    how'd that work out for them?
    This is assuming that all Communist regimes are the same. They are not.

    The Communist eventually came to power, after the initial purge and everything has stablised, Vietnam got itself together and is now growing at a phenomenal rate. If the war was shorter and smaller in scale, then they could have stablised faster.

    Even China now has the second highest GDP in the world, and very soon will overtake the US.

    on the same vein, it occurs to me that fewer southerners would have died if the North had let them succeed after the first battle of Bull Run. fewer Japanese would have died if we had just let them have China. fewer Germans would have died if we had just let them have france and spend themselves duking it out against the USSR.
    So the South Vietnamese are aggressors like the Japanese and the Germans?

    If America had succeeded in keeping the South from falling under the North, than I would not say that American involvement might have worsen the killing, but that's not what happened. The South fell under the North and the revege killing might have been worsened by continued resistence.

    It's like cancer surgery/therapy. If after going through it you're alive, then it's worth it. If you still die after all the surgery and chemo and what not - then the patient sufferred more for having gone through the surgery/therapy than if we left the patient alone. Of course, when we decide to go through the surgery/therapy, we always hope for the best and won't know that the pain would be for nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  7. #177
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by LookingGlass View Post
    It does, however, beg the question as to why there are still those who are communists in spite of its dismal failure.
    Because we humans have a tendency to continue to believe what we want to believe regardless of consequences and of any facts in evidence. There are examples of that tendency on this very forum.

    Take, for example the belief in the so called "domino theory", that the whole of SE Asia would "go Communist" if we were to let the Vietnamese control their own destiny. Nearly two decades of war and a stinging defeat later, followed by nearly three decades of peace , not only is SE Asia not Communist, but not even Vietnam is Communist.

    Yet, you can still find people who will maintain that the US defeated Communism by having invaded Vietnam. That's how difficult it is for people to change their belief systems to conform to reality.
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  8. #178
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Because we humans have a tendency to continue to believe what we want to believe regardless of consequences and of any facts in evidence. There are examples of that tendency on this very forum.

    Take, for example the belief in the so called "domino theory", that the whole of SE Asia would "go Communist" if we were to let the Vietnamese control their own destiny. Nearly two decades of war and a stinging defeat later, followed by nearly three decades of peace , not only is SE Asia not Communist, but not even Vietnam is Communist.

    Yet, you can still find people who will maintain that the US defeated Communism by having invaded Vietnam. That's how difficult it is for people to change their belief systems to conform to reality.
    There is nothing harder than trying to teach (or convince) someone something they already think they know.

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  9. #179
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so you consider the hell that was unleashed following the fall of SVietnam to have been 'needful killing'? i have a Hmong buddy whose family (what's left of it) might take exception to that.
    Excellent reason for our never having gotten involved, we killed as many Vietnamese as did our enemy, doubling the total number of Vietnamese deaths and sacrificed 58,000 of our own in the process, all for nothing as the rest of the world didn't fall to communism as was hyped. In fact Communist Vietnam has been our trading partner since the early 90's.
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  10. #180
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Because we humans have a tendency to continue to believe what we want to believe regardless of consequences and of any facts in evidence. There are examples of that tendency on this very forum.

    Take, for example the belief in the so called "domino theory", that the whole of SE Asia would "go Communist" if we were to let the Vietnamese control their own destiny. Nearly two decades of war and a stinging defeat later, followed by nearly three decades of peace , not only is SE Asia not Communist, but not even Vietnam is Communist.

    Yet, you can still find people who will maintain that the US defeated Communism by having invaded Vietnam. That's how difficult it is for people to change their belief systems to conform to reality.
    But had South Viet Nam fallen to the Communists in 1954, the situation in Southeast Asia could have been VERY different. The entire region was FAR MORE vulnerable to Communism in 1954 than it was in 1975. In 1954, the Domino Theory was have been FAR more likely to play out than it was in 1975. Just take a look at what was going on in Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines in the 1950s and 1960s if you question this... or you can simply ignore it as it was last time this point was made...
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