View Poll Results: Who won the Vietnam War?

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  • The French

    2 1.28%
  • The British

    1 0.64%
  • The Americans

    9 5.77%
  • The Canadians

    2 1.28%
  • The Chinese

    4 2.56%
  • The Russians

    4 2.56%
  • The Japanese

    0 0%
  • The Vietnamese

    71 45.51%
  • No one

    44 28.21%
  • Other

    19 12.18%
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Thread: Who won the Vietnam War?

  1. #121
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The Interim goverment was installed by us
    Whose only purpose was to draft a constitution that was then ratified by popular vote. I fail to see how that influenced Iraq to give us oil contracts that we in fact failed to get long term.

    and we killed many of the opposition party
    No we did not.

    and kept the most powerful military on the planet there to influence the elections
    We did not influence the elections.

    and keep our troops there to prop up the "new" corrupt government that still can't stand against its own people.
    The fastest conversion to democracy ever. We certainly are not propping up the government.

    Western oil has money invested in Iraqi oil for the first time in over 3 decades thanks to our war.
    We only received short-term contracts and did not land a single contract in the last round, which were long-term contracts.

    You bring only the same old tired cynical leftist retard anti-war bull**** to the table, Catawba. What gives you away? The fact that you fail to be nuanced about your evaluation and list positives and negatives, of which there are both. To your way of looking at the war, ideologically trapped, all of it is negative. It completely discredits your opinion. Spout whatever crap you want, assume I respond to you again telling you you are wrong.

  2. #122
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Best post of the thread...

    still, the naysayers haven't actually said what is wrong with the early posts...
    I think I've made my own case about why you can't blame the media and liberals for being against a war that wasn't such a good idea in the first place, and only got more unpopular as time dragged on.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  3. #123
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Hmmmm, you seem to to be an isolationist, Those active in the world news and politics at the time felt really strongly on these issues. The American government and it's people use the American values in order to answer the very hard question's the world politics proposed during that time and even today. All these decisions do have consequences you are not aware of, if America just didn't give a **** what happened around them through history i don't think we would be as near as large of a world power. If communist countries just arose without any of our resistance
    BUT this is kinda pointless trying to describe the importance of American values in history and today to a Liberal (I don't really mean that in offense).
    I'm not an isolationist. I only feel that the public, and our leaders, should have a rational, intelligent discussion on the use and deployment of military force before it happens. And I personally believe America doesn't always live up to the values it claims to profess, and our foreign policy has historically been filled with internal contradictions and hypocritical positions (for instance, is our intervention in Libya right now really about humanitarian causes? If it were, there are tons of other places that need our help just as much, not to mention places like Yemen and Bahrain which are facing a similar situation to Libya). We claim to be for freedom only when it suits our interests. We claim to be for self-determination, except when some Latin American country decides to go socialist, in which case it is suddenly our business to formulate and coup and install a complete dick(tator) like Pinochet.

    Yeaaa, i just don't agree, i just know from personal experience from peoples attitudes toward communism when it is mentioned, and just basic american history with McCarthy'ism(sp?) and stuff. In recent politics it's usually popular to call people a communist, if it was nothing to fear , why would someone care?
    The answer to this is simple: propaganda and media perception. I am hardly a Communist supporter, but I believe the whole fear of Communism to be entirely overblown especially during the McCarthy era. The irrational fear of Communism during that time can be compared to the overemphasis on Islam as a religion today, rather than the underlying causes of terrorism.

    And in my opinion, not that socialist people are evil, but i think socialism is bad/evil/violates man's rights.
    You are entitled to your opinion, but I believe that it really depends on what form that socialist government takes. Certainly with all the freedom and rights that are part of a capitalist society, many injustices still exist.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 03-22-11 at 11:31 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  4. #124
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Depends on your point of view.

    From a military point of view, the United States won the war. The North Vietnamese Communists certainly achieved their objective of conquering the south and creating a unified Vietnam, ruled by the Communist party, but not because of anything they did, or anything they accomplished. You could almost say they got it on accident, because they military speaking, they got their asses handed to them everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
    Please explain? Seems to me we lost the war in every way, shape and form..... the results don't lie.

  5. #125
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Late to the party, but I'd be hard-pressed to identify anyone that "won" the Vietnam War. Nobody achieved their objectives and nobody benefited from it except arms dealers.

    The Vietnamese reunited their country under their own leadership. The Soviets got their client state. We halted the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia. So you could say that everyone walked away with something, but I'd argue that's a damned cold comfort compared to everything we left on the field.

  6. #126
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Please explain? Seems to me we lost the war in every way, shape and form..... the results don't lie.
    American forces never lost a significant battle in Vietnam. We were well on our way to victory when we abandoned the campaign and our allies due to political pressure and domestic unrest.

    We didn't lose. We quit. And frankly, as far as I am concerned, that is more shameful.

  7. #127
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Whose only purpose was to draft a constitution that was then ratified by popular vote. I fail to see how that influenced Iraq to give us oil contracts that we in fact failed to get long term.
    There would not be a "new" corrupt government without our invasion and occupation to allow western oil back in Iraq for the first time since Iraq Nationalized their oil in 1972.

    Iraq is a treasure chest of black gold, and now it's offering contracts to foreign firms for the first time since 1972.


    No we did not.
    What a convincing case you make. LOL!

    We did not influence the elections.
    I would argue that just having the most powerful military beat back a country's opposition to that occupation for years influneces people. It is further evidenced that the corrupt government we helped install cannot stand against their own people without our continued military occupation.

    The fastest conversion to democracy ever. We certainly are not propping up the government.
    Amazing what can happen when you back one side in a civil war and use taxpayer money to buy off the bad actors. Too bad it can't stand on its own with out occuapation by the most powerful military on the planet


    We only received short-term contracts and did not land a single contract in the last round, which were long-term contracts.

    It was never about our US companies getting contracts. Have you never read Cheney's and his oil cohorts report? The goal of our war against Iraq was laid out before we were ever attacked on 9/11:

    "The report, Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century, concludes: "The United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma. Iraq remains a de-stabilising influence to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East. Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export programme to manipulate oil markets. Therefore the US should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq including military, energy, economic and political/ diplomatic assessments.

    "The United States should then develop an integrated strategy with key allies in Europe and Asia, and with key countries in the Middle East, to restate goals with respect to Iraqi policy and to restore a cohesive coalition of key allies."
    Baker who delivered the recommendations to Cheney, the former chief executive of Texas oil firm Halliburton, was advised by Kenneth Lay, the disgraced former chief executive of Enron, the US energy giant which went bankrupt after carrying out massive accountancy fraud.

    The other advisers to Baker were: Luis Giusti, a Shell non- executive director; John Manzoni, regional president of BP and David O'Reilly, chief executive of ChevronTexaco. Another name linked to the document is Sheikh Saud Al Nasser Al Sabah, the former Kuwaiti oil minister and a fellow of the Baker Institute."

    Official: US oil at the heart of Iraq crisis | Sunday Herald, The Newspaper | Find Articles at BNET





    You bring only the same old tired cynical leftist retard anti-war bull**** to the table, Catawba. What gives you away? The fact that you fail to be nuanced about your evaluation and list positives and negatives, of which there are both. To your way of looking at the war, ideologically trapped, all of it is negative. It completely discredits your opinion. Spout whatever crap you want, assume I respond to you again telling you you are wrong.
    I bring facts to bear, and you bring "no its not" as a retort. So, I await your usual response.
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-23-11 at 02:06 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #128
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    "Destroy the North's government and unify Vietnam with the South in power? Or drive the North back to the agreed upon line?"

    Either one could have been done in under seven years. The only reason the war drew out for that long was because of the war policies. WE HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH THE WAR IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

    They would have surrendered if America allowed itself to actually fight the war.

    If you actually finished reading the post, you would find that problems still arise after the deed is done. To stop South Vietnam from falling into Communism, American presence must be maintained well beyond 7 years, the same as South Korea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  9. #129
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Hardly. They had their fair share of support, no doubt, but did they really have a choice? Communism talks a good game, plus the Communist Party was an organizing principle that the south lacked sufficiently in opposition, but when it was over in '75, communists reverted to their true colors and purged ideological dissent. That is the only way a "communist" movement can survive post conflict: it becomes a autocracy. The people of Vietnam suffered decades of maltreatment.

    Would it have been better with a strong man "democracy" like those in Africa and Egypt? The reality is that a transfer to true democracy is not always successful either, alot of countries end up being autocracy because that is the path of least resistence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  10. #130
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    Re: Who won the Vietnam War?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Please explain? Seems to me we lost the war in every way, shape and form..... the results don't lie.
    I did explain. You're just being obtuse.

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