View Poll Results: What Best Describes Your Positions?

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  • I supported the invasion of Iraq and I support the Libyan Intervention

    18 29.51%
  • I opposed the Invasion of Iraq, I support the Libyan Intervention

    16 26.23%
  • I supported the Invasion of Iraq, I oppose the Libyan Intervention

    9 14.75%
  • I opposed both.

    18 29.51%
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Thread: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

  1. #41
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Oh this thread is about Bush. Well now I'm totally disinterested.
    No, it's about a false comparison.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #42
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Are you equally supportive of invading China?
    Burma? .....Their people have yet to rebel, give them time
    Zaire?......jumping in here ?, only a bigger mess will result...
    Saudi Arabia? Why ?, they have a "kind despot" ( yes!, I know)...or a benenvolent momarchy...no revolution yet..Iran? not ready yet..
    Cuba?
    Venezuela?
    We are not a "superpower" !
    We are not superman - this is so childish !
    Our nation has limitations, this should be known,,,,.
    Last edited by earthworm; 03-21-11 at 02:50 PM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, but dictators bring stability Thats a new one ! . And stability is peace. Isn't that how it works? Good enough for the Cold War. Why not now? If we pay no attention to the festering masses underneath who gradually and exponentially turn towards God to liberate them then there is no problem, right? We can simply assume that there is no problem and that killing about 20 terrorists after they've murdered our people will help keep the illusion intact, right?

    I just don't get how people have managed to convince themselves that ignorance and simplicity creates them wisdom. I guess Washington politicians had to have come from somewhere.
    I guess you disagree with my position.
    But what you are trying to say is fractured and lacks sense.

  4. #44
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    Megaprogman: "The fundamental difference between Libya and Iraq is that the Libyan population is in active revolt against the government and are agitating for a democracy. The citizens in Iraq were not and, I believe, were not ready to take that fundamental step towards self rule and the poor results (rampant corruption, continuing sectarian violence, continuing tribalism, etc) are the result of that premature liberation. Another major difference is that the people of Libya were asking for our help while there is no evidence I know of that the people in Iraq did the same."

    I'm curious. If people in Iraq weren't in revolt then why was Hussein gassing the Kurds with non-existent mustard gas and killing Shiites in the South. My reason for supporting the invasion was simply that we had encouraged the revolt and then abandoned the people to Hussein.
    Poor choice of words I guess. By revolt I mean that they (kurds) were not agitating for democratic rule, but instead wanted to form their own country (combine kurdish regions from several adjascent countries into one big kurd country). However, I would have probably supported limited intervention in the north of Iraq like was done in Bosnia (however, this was not the situation presented in 2002) and a separation of the two lands into two countries.

    Another distinction that was is in my mind, but I didn't explicitly mention is that the minority of Iraq (even though the ruling party was also a minority, as far as I can tell, most people were just trying to live their lives under bad conditions but were not actually revolting) while in Libya, you have a huge portion of the population willing to take up arms and fight their own military for democratic self rule.

    There simply being a humanitarian crisis is not enough to convince me that the US should intervene on a military level. There has to be a real chance at substantial gains for the population as a whole. I see the situation in Libya as them trying to trade a dictator for a better form of government. That is worthy of military support. The ultimate principal is that the local population has to lead the way. If people are willing to die en mass for a better government, then there is every reason to support their dream.

    However, in the end, the population has to be mature enough that they can support things like rule of law and other democratic institutions. They will have to be the ones to build the government as imposing an outside government on that region has a terrible track record, unless one is willing to rule by killing anyone who looks at them funny. Our country does not have this sort of attitude. In Iraq we are imposing a government on them while in Libya, I see us as supporting them creating their own government. Because of that Iraq is ultimately harmful while Libya, (I hope, but its very early in the game yet) is ultimately helpful.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-21-11 at 03:09 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Are you equally supportive of invading China?
    Burma?
    Zaire?
    Saudi Arabia?
    Iran?
    Cuba?
    Venezuela?
    Only when those who should be protecting their people start slaughtering them.
    Not oppressing, not abusing, slaughtering.

    I'm just one of those people that believe the strong should not prey upon the weak. Chivalry and all that obsolete nonsense.

    And frankly, even if China started murdering its own people in mass we should probably stay out of that one.

    And we only depose dictators when they outlive their usefulness to us. Up til then, they're the greatest thing since sex.

    Further, we didn't lead the charge, guns blazing this time. We just joined the rest of the world dealing with a rattlesnake in the yard. VERY different.

    I see your point, but in this case we're comparing apples to something fundamentally different from apples.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  6. #46
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    It's not subtle.

    Stating what it is will earn the Mayor a warning, so it shall not be stated.
    Would you ask the Mayor why he speaks of himself in the third person?

    I always find that behavior disturbing, as it indicates an overinflated ego, or schizophrenia. Unless alchohol and competition involving men is responsible, and you don't sound drunk.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  7. #47
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    My position is best summed up as: Stay the **** out of it, our education system needs money and more attention.
    We did stay out of it. Right up to 9/11. Shall we go through another round of staying out of it until the next historical date of infamy?

    Of course, there is a more truthful way to look at it. When we were supporting dictators and twisted regimes during the Cold War and helping to facilitate the blundering failure that is the MENA region, we were hardly staying out of it. When we rushed to protect Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, we were hardly staying out of it. When we aided the UN in starving out Iraq fr 12 years we were hardly staying out of it. And everytime we place sanctions upon another country for their insolence we are hardly staying out of it. And soveriegnty? The law that allows anybody to murder as many people as possible within their own borders without reprise from greater nations? How do UN sanctions and "no-fly" zones honor anybody's soveriegnty? How does influencing the allegiance of character nations honor his soveriegnty?

    Our education system always needs attention. The military is the scapegoat of the ignorant, because your politicians would rather you believe the absurd rather than looking into where they squander money into their own pet projects and corporate pay offs. You really think our education system would be better had we not taken out the taliban and Saddam Hussein? You think money spent on rockets over Libya is why your kid's text book is crap? Our education system suffers because we have a country full of bad teachers and equally bad parents. In the mean time, the ignorant blame the military campaigns in the wake of exacting their petty 9/11 revenge.

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  8. #48
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I bought the argument on Kosovo that we were not the police of the world. So, bringing up Clinton is of little value here.
    Of course it's of value. It proves that we have a history of telling the UN to suck it when they prefer stability at all costs over doing the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    My point is a simple one, there is a difference, a real difference between invading a country that has not attacked you, is not killing his own at the time, is contained, on a pretext, outside the UN, and ocuupying than stopping ongoing killing, within the UN, and not occupying. This is even different than what Clinton did.
    It doesn't matter! That is my point. You are creating diferences because it makes you feel good to flip back and forth in your morality. But this is more than just moral. It is strategically necessary. And the only difference betwen Iraq and Libya is that we ignored the slaughter of uprising Iraqis for 12 years while refusing to ignore the ones in Libya. France decides to support the dictator of Tunisia throughout December by offerring security, but takes a stand over neighboring Libya?

    This is a regional problem. Always has been and the UN is too full of selfish dip****s, who aren't affected by this region's waste, to care about it. Why do you thnk it takes the UN so long to declare any travesty? Maybe it's because Rwanda and Sudan taught them that if they only deliberate long enough that the offender will finish his slaughter campaign and thereby offer "peace"... er I mean stability. In 2003, we didn't have so much Arab support to deal with the prick in the desert and kick start democracy. Now that the people are uprising all over the place for democracy we pretend that we should "butt out" or "look away" or prove ourselves hypocrits? Bosnia and Kosovo are in Europe. Seeing how that is where two World Wars began I'd place that into its proper perspective. I would do the same for the MENA region considering that 95 percent of the world's religious terror is being bred there under the rule of dictators and religious theocracies. Something has to change. Supporting the people under our usual business partners is new. Maybe that's why the intellectual herd of sheep in the West can't fathom it and prefer that comfy "stability" game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And yes, there have always been dictators. And they are almost always brutal. Bad for all concerned. But that does not give any other natiion to the right to invade and occupy. Doing so when a people have already stood up is also very different than doing so without them standing up and imposing ourselves on them. The difference is real and not to be dismissed.
    Well, if we just wait long enough then his slaughter will be over. That way, like with Hussein, we can preach about it being too late, right? Dictator's of the world don't matter here. It's the MENA that does. It's the dictators in the MENA that oppress a religious civilization so badly that they have no choices left but to jihad. And who is that Great Satan scapegoat again? The ones that supported the dictators during the Cold War? The ones that empowered him aferwards with military surplus so as to keep the people in line? The ones that today wait until the people appear to be winning before we take a stand?

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  9. #49
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    I guess you disagree with my position.
    But what you are trying to say is fractured and lacks sense.
    I was being facetious. More in line with our critics who preach about a future, but secretly demand the past.

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  10. #50
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Of course it's of value. It proves that we have a history of telling the UN to suck it when they prefer stability at all costs over doing the right thing.
    Having a history is not equal to being right. Respect for rule of law should be one of our values.


    It doesn't matter! That is my point. You are creating diferences because it makes you feel good to flip back and forth in your morality. But this is more than just moral. It is strategically necessary. And the only difference betwen Iraq and Libya is that we ignored the slaughter of uprising Iraqis for 12 years while refusing to ignore the ones in Libya. France decides to support the dictator of Tunisia throughout December by offerring security, but takes a stand over neighboring Libya?

    This is a regional problem. Always has been and the UN is too full of selfish dip****s, who aren't affected by this region's waste, to care about it. Why do you thnk it takes the UN so long to declare any travesty? Maybe it's because Rwanda and Sudan taught them that if they only deliberate long enough that the offender will finish his slaughter campaign and thereby offer "peace"... er I mean stability. In 2003, we didn't have so much Arab support to deal with the prick in the desert and kick start democracy. Now that the people are uprising all over the place for democracy we pretend that we should "butt out" or "look away" or prove ourselves hypocrits? Bosnia and Kosovo are in Europe. Seeing how that is where two World Wars began I'd place that into its proper perspective. I would do the same for the MENA region considering that 95 percent of the world's religious terror is being bred there under the rule of dictators and religious theocracies. Something has to change. Supporting the people under our usual business partners is new. Maybe that's why the intellectual herd of sheep in the West can't fathom it and prefer that comfy "stability" game.

    You're wrong, it does matter. It matters a great deal.

    regardless of the UN, no nation should go around invading countries without justiifcation. Real justification. You can act to stop heavy killing. You can act to stop a imminent threat. But you can act on maybes and what ifs. I've listed the differences, and they matter. It has nothing to do with me feeling better, especially since I don't at all feel better. These things are costly on a number of levels, and no one should feel better when they happen.



    Well, if we just wait long enough then his slaughter will be over. That way, like with Hussein, we can preach about it being too late, right? Dictator's of the world don't matter here. It's the MENA that does. It's the dictators in the MENA that oppress a religious civilization so badly that they have no choices left but to jihad. And who is that Great Satan scapegoat again? The ones that supported the dictators during the Cold War? The ones that empowered him aferwards with military surplus so as to keep the people in line? The ones that today wait until the people appear to be winning before we take a stand?
    We were wrong to support dictators, and we're wrong when we invade on a pretense and occupy a country. We're not the world police and we can't remake the world in our image without a real and serious cost. You're last sentence is a bit wrong. Again, it is one thing when a people stand up for themselves, and we help. It's another thing when we're so arrogant as to think we can impose ourselves on them, tellling them what is worth what. It is important to recognize differences.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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