View Poll Results: What Best Describes Your Positions?

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  • I supported the invasion of Iraq and I support the Libyan Intervention

    18 29.51%
  • I opposed the Invasion of Iraq, I support the Libyan Intervention

    16 26.23%
  • I supported the Invasion of Iraq, I oppose the Libyan Intervention

    9 14.75%
  • I opposed both.

    18 29.51%
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Thread: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

  1. #91
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    I support limited intervention, with us acting as more of a supporting force. Mainly for humanitarian reasons, and as I think it will help our standing globally.

    I opposed Iraq because I felt that we were there under false pretenses and because we tried to enforce our culture onto a people that weren't particularly asking for it en-mass.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    The difference us that we denied ourselves invasion of the Soviets because of the threat of nuclear retaliation. We deny ourselves invasion of Saudi Arabia because of the business interests of our political class.
    Sure. But oil is far more imprtant to this world than a few political pockets. I don't think most people realize how much of their life is oil based.

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  3. #93
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    While the U.N. is not the boss of us, it does provide legitimacy of our action.
    Not only that, but it allows the possibility for the UN to provide support in other areas, such as peacekeeping forces or parliamentary scholars to help the Libyan people draft a new system of government, and to use UN programs to re-develop the Libyan infrastructure after the civil war. This is opposed to what was done in Iraq and Afghanistan, in which the U.S. bore most of the costs of doing so.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  4. #94
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Sure. But oil is far more imprtant to this world than a few political pockets. I don't think most people realize how much of their life is oil based.
    Once a person realizes how much food is grown and cultivated by tractors running on diesel, they realize how important petroleum truly is to their ability to live with a modern standard of a quality of life.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  5. #95
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBook View Post
    I opposed Iraq because I felt that we were there under false pretenses and because we tried to enforce our culture onto a people that weren't particularly asking for it en-mass.
    I have never understood this. What exactly is it about our culture that we have imposed? The default here is to insist that democracy is a Western thing. But this isn't true at all. Just because it started here doesn't mean it only belongs here. Democracy isn't for old white people and any colored folk that happen to escape their former oppressive regimes.

    Are you aware of the demand for democracy at the onset of European colonialism in this region? And how they were denied it because it meant less power for the Europeans? Are you aware of the "Age of Revolution" in the 1950s where all these Arab nations wanted freedom from their European colonial powers, but fell victim to the local military coups that merely made their oppressions worse? And how the Cold War game maintained this "stability" at all costs? And what about the Persians who were denied their chance at democracy because the British fooled the Americans into thinking that they were leaning towards the Soviet Union (enter the Shah.)? Democracy is hardly alien to their culture. In fact, the SUnni elders practiced democracy to elect the early caliphates long before the US even existed and while Europe was celebrating their dark age. So what is it that we "enforced" from our culture?

    As for asking for it, they did. They rebelled against Saddam Hussein at our request more than once during the 1990s and we simply watched them get slaughtered. We merely maintained the UN game of starvation for "stability." And the "en-masse" is the Shia nd the Kurd, not the Sunni who oppressed them under UN facilitation. And how do you see false pretense? The argument to create democracy was clearly made before the invasion. If you chose to focus solely on "WMD" then you duped yourself. After all, it wasn't called "Operation: WMD" was it?
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 12:51 PM.

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  6. #96
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I have never understood this. What exactly is it about our culture that we have imposed? The default here is to insist that democracy is a Western thing. But this isn't true at all. Just because it started here doesn't mean it only belongs here. Democracy isn't for old white people and any colored folk that happen to escape their former oppressive regimes.

    Are you aware of the demand for democracy at the onset of European colonialism in this region? And how they were denied it because it meant less power for the Europeans? Are you aware of the "Age of Revolution" in the 1950s where all these Arab nations wanted freedom from their European colonial powers, but fell victim to the local military coups that merely made their oppressions worse? And how the Cold War game maintained this "stability" at all costs? And what about the Persians who were denied their chance at democracy because the British fooled the Americans into thinking that they were leaning towards the Soviet Union (enter the Shah.)? Democracy is hardly alien to their culture. In fact, the SUnni elders practiced democracy to elect the early caliphates long before the US even existed and while Europe was celebrating their dark age. So what is it that we "enforced" from our culture?

    As for asking for it, they did. They rebelled against Saddam Hussein at our request more than once during the 1990s and we simply watched them get slaughtered. We merely maintained the UN game of starvation for "stability." And the "en-masse" is the Shia nd the Kurd, not the Sunni who oppressed them under UN facilitation. And how do you see false pretense? The argument to create democracy was clearly made before the invasion. If you chose to focus solely on "WMD" then you duped yourself. After all, it wasn't called "Operation: WMD" was it?
    I can't argue with much of what you said.

    However, you do realize that the way that President G.W. Bush was able to mobilize Congress and the American people and foreign nations to support the military operations in Iraq he put forth was by making the claim that Hussein was acquiring weapons of mass destruction.

    Secretary Colin Powell did go before the United Nations and focus on the plight of the Iraqi people under Hussein's regime. He went up there and claimed that the world was in danger of the weapons Iraq was acquiring and willing to use.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  7. #97
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I can't argue with much of what you said.

    However, you do realize that the way that President G.W. Bush was able to mobilize Congress and the American people and foreign nations to support the military operations in Iraq he put forth was by making the claim that Hussein was acquiring weapons of mass destruction.

    Secretary Colin Powell did go before the United Nations and focus on the plight of the Iraqi people under Hussein's regime. He went up there and claimed that the world was in danger of the weapons Iraq was acquiring and willing to use.
    Oh, he absolutely harped on WMD. No doubt about it. But people seem to pretend that's all that was spoken. And when WMD was not discovered, everyone pretended that "Operation: Freedom" didn't imply other reasons and that they were left entirley in the dark. It's this root ignorance that denies them clarification as to what they are witnessing across the MENA region today. While they ignorantly see borders on a map, which must mean that each and every single nation hasnothing to do with their neighbors, Arabs in the MENA see a civilization full of divided and carved out tribes voicing for the same new path.

    At this point I have to call it sheer stupidity rather than ignorance. These tribes are divided between European borders that simple donotmatter. Part of the tribes in Libya rests in Egypt. Parts of the tribes in Afghanistan rests in Pakistan, Iran, Tajikstan, China, Uzbekistan, etc. Parts of the tribes in Iraq rests in Syria, Iran, Turkey. This is a regional problem and none of these individual states can make a move without affecting the rest. Iraq was never solely about Iraq. Afghanistan was never going to be about solely Afghanistan. What all of this means is that the health of part of a tribe means the probable lean towards health of the rest of the tribe in another country. It also means that if part of a tribe sees us as hypocrits or unwilling to go the distance to practice what we preach, the rest of the tribe across the border will lean that next nation against us too.
    Last edited by MSgt; 03-29-11 at 02:15 PM.

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  8. #98
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Where were you standing when GW Bush decided that Saddam Hussein needed to be removed from power by US military action?
    Against it.

    Where are you standing now, when Obama has decided to intervene in Libya?
    Against it. A civil war is the business of people that are fighting it. Some are going to die if they are going to win, so Obama or anyone else crying about the people dieing over there is not something worth mentioning but sadly it will get him or anyone else support for the unsupportable more times than not and this is no different.

  9. #99
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    There are distinctions between our intervention in Iraq versus our intervention in Libya.

    For one, the U.N. authorized the intervention in Libya by “all means necessary” short of the introduction of ground troops to protect the civilian population; not so for the intervention in Iraq.

    Contrast:


    With this:


    While the U.N. is not the boss of us, it does provide legitimacy of our action. When America is perceived to act unilaterally people around the world see it as a threat and tyrant; when it acts in league with a wide (read, authentic) coalition it is perceived as a principled advocate for democracy and self determination.
    If you go back and read the relevant resolutions, you will find that force in Iraq WAS IN FACT authorized by the United Nations Security Council...
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  10. #100
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    Re: Where Were You in 2002? Where are you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    If you go back and read the relevant resolutions, you will find that force in Iraq WAS IN FACT authorized by the United Nations Security Council...
    I would be interested in anything you can point to that demonstrates that the United Nations Security Council authorized the Iraq invasion in 2003. Thanks in advance.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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