View Poll Results: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

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Thread: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not the same madman for four decades, but the US was definitely not a democracy at that time, as the government disenfranchised the 50% of the population that was female, as well as various ethnic minorities.
    By the standards of the day, the U.S. was quite democratic. Also, the minorities who were mostly disenfranchised were in the areas of the country that were rebelling...

    Yeah, probably. Sherman set the entire state of Georgia ablaze.
    The entire state of Georgia? Were that true, there wouldn't be any antebellum structures left standing and in tact in the state. Also, I had never heard any stories of Sherman targeting civilivians either during the siege of Atlanta or during the march to the sea...

    Nice try though, but all it does is show your desparation to make a point...
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  2. #62
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The U.S. didn't fight the Revolutionary War. We were still just colonies back then. That's why it was a revolution.
    And all this time I thought the US became a nation in 1776. Go figure.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  3. #63
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    By the standards of the day, the U.S. was quite democratic. Also, the minorities who were mostly disenfranchised were in the areas of the country that were rebelling...



    The entire state of Georgia? Were that true, there wouldn't be any antebellum structures left standing and in tact in the state. Also, I had never heard any stories of Sherman targeting civilivians either during the siege of Atlanta or during the march to the sea...

    Nice try though, but all it does is show your desparation to make a point...
    Sherman burned a vast amount of Atlanta. He acted like a real butcher while in South Carolina.


    "I'm going to march to Richmond...and when I go through South Carolina it will be one of the most horrible things in the history of the world. The devil himself couldn't restrain my men in that state." -William T. Sherman

    To Henry W Helleck: "The truth is the whole army is burning with an insatiable desire to wreak vengeance upon South Carolina." -Sherman
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  4. #64
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yeah, probably. Sherman set the entire state of Georgia ablaze.
    He ordered the burning of public buildings, arsenals and materials that could support the rebel army.

    Union troops did not indiscriminately set fire to Atlanta. If memory serves Sherman ordered all civilians out of the city.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  5. #65
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    By the standards of the day, the U.S. was quite democratic.
    Why do the "standards of the day" apply to the US in 1860s, but the "standards of the region" don't apply to Libya today?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    Also, the minorities who were mostly disenfranchised were in the areas of the country that were rebelling...
    Uhh I'm pretty sure that minorities in the north didn't get much representation either. And in any case, women still didn't have the right to vote which is fully half the population.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    The entire state of Georgia? Were that true, there wouldn't be any antebellum structures left standing and in tact in the state. Also, I had never heard any stories of Sherman targeting civilivians either during the siege of Atlanta or during the march to the sea...
    When you set everything on fire in your path, it's going to kill some civilians. And it's hardly a tactic that minimizes those casualties. Whether they were specifically "targeted" or not probably didn't matter much to those who died.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai
    Nice try though, but all it does is show your desparation to make a point...
    You're the one who suggested that the US during the Civil War was democratic and didn't indiscriminately kill civilians. I just pointed out that neither of those things were true. Don't get mad at ME just because your suggestion was stupid and you got called on it.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    Sherman burned a vast amount of Atlanta. He acted like a real butcher while in South Carolina.


    "I'm going to march to Richmond...and when I go through South Carolina it will be one of the most horrible things in the history of the world. The devil himself couldn't restrain my men in that state." -William T. Sherman

    To Henry W Helleck: "The truth is the whole army is burning with an insatiable desire to wreak vengeance upon South Carolina." -Sherman
    Yep, Union troops were happy to destroy anything of use to the rebel army in SC. They blamed the state for starting the war.
    The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.

  7. #67
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why do the "standards of the day" apply to the US in 1860s, but the "standards of the region" don't apply to Libya today?
    You can't distinguish between the standards of the day and standards of the region? You know, this is 2011, not 1861. Values have changed. If we don't like their values, we don't have to deal with them. Fortunately, many in that region do NOT want to be ruled by dictators and do NOT accept the notion that human rights and values apply to some but not to others in the 21st century.

    Uhh I'm pretty sure that minorities in the north didn't get much representation either. And in any case, women still didn't have the right to vote which is fully half the population.
    Where DID women have the vote at that time?

    When you set everything on fire in your path, it's going to kill some civilians. And it's hardly a tactic that minimizes those casualties. Whether they were specifically "targeted" or not probably didn't matter much to those who died.
    Anything that could support war against the Union troops was destroyed if it could be, but civilians were allowed to leave before torching began. There are still large numbers of antebellum buildings standing in Georgia, FYI.

    You're the one who suggested that the US during the Civil War was democratic and didn't indiscriminately kill civilians. I just pointed out that neither of those things were true. Don't get mad at ME just because your suggestion was stupid and you got called on it.
    Actually, I was responding to the stupid suggestion that possible British or French recognition of the CSA would somehow be comparable to the French recognition of the Libyan rebels or that anything that the Western and Arab forces may be doing would somehow help them. THAT was the original comparison and it was absurd on its face... notice, he hasn't return to the thread to respond...

    And the U.S. was MOST CERTAINLY democratic and free compared to other states in the 1860s and in many respects, arguably MORE FREE than any other state in the world at the time...
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  8. #68
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    1. Was the United States a dictatorship run by the same madman for more than four decades?
    In that case, Mugabe is next and then Bashir and then Deby and then...WHEN DOES IT END?

    I've had this argument with other conservatives who pick and choose which dictators they see as worthy of bombing. In the end, it really comes down to the type of political party in power in the United States. Bush was justified in Iraq, Clinton was unjustified in Kosovo, etc. It's total subjective bull****.

    When you plan to kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of mostly children civilians, you better be DAMN SURE it is justified. And frankly, it is not in Libya, or Iraq, or Kosovo, or anywhere else that is not deemed an immediate or pertinent threat to the U.S.A.

    2. Was the Union army indiscriminantly killing people?
    It is debatable whether or not Lincoln was, in fact, a dictator. You could argue that Lincoln was not a dictator because our constitution allowed for the suspension of habeas corpus during war. In that case, you cannot claim Mussolini was a dictator because the Italian constitution allowed the ascension of leader with dictatorial powers during a time of war. But we all know that Mussolini was a dictator, and that Lincoln held almost absolute control over the country (at least the Union) during the civil war. His only opponents were the radicals of his own party, who ultimately went ahead with his ideas.

    Please, be aware of what you are saying when you make such comparisons...[/QUOTE]

  9. #69
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    In that case, Mugabe is next and then Bashir and then Deby and then...WHEN DOES IT END?

    I've had this argument with other conservatives who pick and choose which dictators they see as worthy of bombing. In the end, it really comes down to the type of political party in power in the United States. Bush was justified in Iraq, Clinton was unjustified in Kosovo, etc. It's total subjective bull****.
    For the record, I supported the action regarding Kosovo, though I did take a lot of heat for it living in China at the time, especially after the accidential bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.

    When you plan to kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of mostly children civilians, you better be DAMN SURE it is justified. And frankly, it is not in Libya, or Iraq, or Kosovo, or anywhere else that is not deemed an immediate or pertinent threat to the U.S.A.
    Sure it was in all of these cases. Kosovars were being brutalized by the Yugoslav army. Iraq was in material violation of more than a dozen UN Security Council resolutions, all of which carried with them the authorization for the use of force. Saddam was a maniacal dictator who invaded two neighbors, used WMDs against his own people, and attemptede genocide against the Marsh Arabs in the south. I also agree it is appropriate in Libya as well.


    It is debatable whether or not Lincoln was, in fact, a dictator. You could argue that Lincoln was not a dictator because our constitution allowed for the suspension of habeas corpus during war. In that case, you cannot claim Mussolini was a dictator because the Italian constitution allowed the ascension of leader with dictatorial powers during a time of war. But we all know that Mussolini was a dictator, and that Lincoln held almost absolute control over the country (at least the Union) during the civil war. His only opponents were the radicals of his own party, who ultimately went ahead with his ideas.
    Except that Mussolini was a dictator BEFORE the war started and he was on the side that STARTED the war. The same can't be said for Lincoln.

    Is this the best you can do? We can agree to disagree on whether the aforementioned actions are justifiable or not. That is a matter of opinion. However, to argue that the U.S. was not democratic in the 1860s is really not open to debate. The U.S. was clearly one of the most, if not THE most, democratic states in the world at the time, regardless of its imperfections.
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  10. #70
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    Re: Are we doing the right thing in Libya?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    It's a revolution. It is two sides battling it out for their own country.
    Let them get to it, if they lose. They never had the immense broad support that was seen in Egypt and Tunisia.
    If they win, then we welcome them into the fold.

    It is not our responsibility or our duty. We are not the world's police and I wonder what BS excuse will come out of our politicians mouths when more dead soldiers start arriving.
    I agree, it's not a revolution if they have other people doing their fighting for them. If they can overthrow the existing government, they have the support and resolve to do so. Otherwise, they don't and have no business running Libya. I'm getting sick of people involved in a revolution whining that they can't fight the good fight alone. Then stop fighting already!
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