View Poll Results: Do You Support a Single Payer Health Care System?

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  • Yes

    39 39.39%
  • No

    54 54.55%
  • Maybe

    6 6.06%
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Thread: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

  1. #191
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    It's rationing, something Obama Care does, as must all government medical plans.
    Mayor Snorkum just posted utter hogwash! Where does the new health care bill deny health care coverage for those over 70?

    When people pay for their own medical care, rationing is no longer an issue and that whole line of argument becomes irrelevant.
    The problem is that thanks to our 30 year experiment with Reaganomics (trickle down economics and deregulation), 50 million people can no longer afford healthcare. What is your solution other than throwing our elderly to the street? Or is that your solution?

    Exactly.
    A person making 25,000 dollars a year pays $2,500, and a person making $2,500,000 pays $250,000 dollars. Both pay 10%, and hence both are paying the as proportional tax.

    I said effective tax rates on wealth, not income. Now, if we were to tax all wealth than a flat tax would be fair. The progressive tax rate we used to have in this country used to compensate for that discrepancy by taxing the income of the rich at a much higher effective tax rate.


    So? That doesn't mean they're not unconstitutiona. Just in case you missed it, the courts in the United States are not politically unbiased.
    Of, course they have been biased to the right for years. How could I miss it. That doesn't mean I don't believe in the rule of law. Do you believe in the rule of law?



    And, naturally, the most propserous years of US history were not prosperous because the government was stealing all that money from the people who created the wealth, the US was properous in spite of that taxation which impeded growth. The US was prosperous in the Post-War economy for one reason and one reason only:

    The United States was the only industrialized nation in the world with intact factories. The United States made a booming business selling other nations finished goods and tools and raw materials their foolish lust for war had destroyed in their own countries. Who couldn't make money in an environment like that?
    And, the progressive tax and SS is what built the strongest middle class we've had in history. Without it, the robber baron society would have continued the two class system that was in effect, which is what we are returning to today since the class war that began in 1981 against the middle class.
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-19-11 at 06:22 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #192
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    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That's not entirely true, that often quoted number doesn't remove those who have access but chose not to participate.
    Regardless of whether they choose not to participate, or whether the health insurers make the choice for them, the fact is that they don't have it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You're drawing conclusions from simple statistical data, these people in countries with single payer/UHC systems, do not receive platinum care, they get average care, yet they have higher life expectancies.

    Average does not create the best results.
    There are other things at work here, racial demographics and overall cultural practices.
    And yet, they do have better results. You can say that other things are at work, but you haven't backed up that statement with more than thin air, at lest not as yet.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Medicaid is for the indigent, on paper.
    If I remember correctly, some states give Medicaid to all pregnant women, who apply.
    But never the less, we have practically complete coverage for pregnant woman and for children on a near universal scale.
    Sorry, but you don't remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why are our infant mortality rates higher?
    It can't be because of access to medical care.
    It most likely is because of our lack of access to medical care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I did, that's why I said many of those factors are unrelated to medical care.
    Obesity being one.
    and smoking another. Did you read in my fact sheet I posted that the US has done a better job of quitting smoking than most other nations?

    You did read my fact sheet I posted, didn't you? It was for anyone who is interested in fac... Oh never mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Life expectancy is a bunk statistic to use, to rate a medical care system.
    It's loaded with more significant factors, besides medical care.
    There are many factors, yes, medical care being one of them, particularly preventative care.



    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What makes you think they get better quality of care?
    One of our problems here is that we supposedly do to much to treat people, now our quality is lacking?
    Which is it?
    Preventative care would most likely be the main one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sure, we spend more on cancer treatments than other countries who have UHC, our 5 year survival rates for some cancers are higher.
    Wow! One bright spot in an otherwise dismal record. Is that worth spending more than anyone else?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  3. #193
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So in other words, none since the failure of the market approach.
    An assumption based on nothing.
    I think I'll start using India as evidence that UHC is an abysmal failure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That isn't proof as life expectancy has been steadily increasing before the government got involved with medical care.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    An assumption based on nothing.
    I think I'll start using India as evidence that UHC is an abysmal failure.
    If it is based on nothing, list the first world nations that use your suggested approach to health care today?

    Smart to pick a non-first world nation to compare with. You wouldn't want to compare apples to apples.

    "In recent times, India has eradicated mass famines, however the country still suffers from high levels of malnutrition and disease especially in rural areas. Water supply and sanitation in India is also a major issue in the country and many Indians in rural areas lack access to proper sanitation facilities and safe drinking water. However, at the same time, India's health care system also includes entities that meet or exceed international quality standards. The medical tourism business in India has been growing in recent years and as such India is a popular destination for medical tourists who receive effective medical treatment at lower costs than in developed countries."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_India




    That isn't proof as life expectancy has been steadily increasing before the government got involved with medical care.
    Why isn't it, in your opinion? it covers the area before to well after the implementation of Medicaid/Medicare.
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-20-11 at 03:04 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #195
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Regardless of whether they choose not to participate, or whether the health insurers make the choice for them, the fact is that they don't have it.
    So if people do have coverage options but chose not to exercise those options, it's the failure of the system and not the person?
    Is that how you rationalize it?
    Hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    And yet, they do have better results. You can say that other things are at work, but you haven't backed up that statement with more than thin air, at lest not as yet.
    India has a UHC system, why are they not getting better results?

    I've provided plenty of information you and others, conveniently ignore.
    You guys constantly and ignorantly use life expectancy as a firm measure of the effectiveness of a medical care system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Sorry, but you don't remember correctly.
    Regardless, pregnancy and children's medical care is nearly universally covered.
    How do you rationalize this one?

    Insurance company hit squads trying to drive up our infant mortality rate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It most likely is because of our lack of access to medical care.
    Proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    and smoking another. Did you read in my fact sheet I posted that the US has done a better job of quitting smoking than most other nations?

    You did read my fact sheet I posted, didn't you? It was for anyone who is interested in fac... Oh never mind.
    I did read it and again, you have yet to show how non medical related health problems are the fault of our system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    There are many factors, yes, medical care being one of them, particularly preventative care.
    Preventative does not save money.
    This has already been shown.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Preventative care would most likely be the main one.
    Riiiight.

    "Our findings suggest that the broad generalizations made by many presidential candidates can be misleading. These statements convey the message that substantial resources can be saved through prevention. Although some preventive measures do save money, the vast majority reviewed in the health economics literature do not."

    MMS: Error

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Wow! One bright spot in an otherwise dismal record. Is that worth spending more than anyone else?
    How is it dismal?
    The vast majority of people are happy with their medical care have coverage.
    You're just making sweeping generalizations.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Smart to pick a non-first world nation to compare with. You wouldn't want to compare apples to apples.
    Now you're moving goal posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Why isn't it, in your opinion? it covers the area before to well after the implementation of Medicaid/Medicare.
    Life expectancy is based on a myriad of factors, medical care being but 1 portion of it relative to the other more broadly effective categories.

    Cultural practices (diet, sexual promiscuity, personal safety habits, general cleanliness, etc.), geography, rate of immigration, weather patterns, murder rate, accidental death rate, etc.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #197
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Now you're moving goal posts.
    What are you talking about? I never made any claims about UHC in third world countries with unsafe water issues and inadequate sanitation. Quote where I did if you can.



    Life expectancy is based on a myriad of factors, medical care being but 1 portion of it relative to the other more broadly effective categories.

    Cultural practices (diet, sexual promiscuity, personal safety habits, general cleanliness, etc.), geography, rate of immigration, weather patterns, murder rate, accidental death rate, etc.

    Oh, you meant before that you were changing goalposts, I see. Before you had said you wanted "proof as life expectancy has been steadily increasing before the government got involved with medical care."

    That's what I provided proof of. Now, you want to throw in other factors. Okay, look at india that you mentioned the reason their UHC is not as effective as first world nations is their economy, unsafe drinking water and inadequate sanitation:

    "In recent times,[when?] India has eradicated mass famines, however the country still suffers from high levels of malnutrition and disease especially in rural areas. Water supply and sanitation in India is also a major issue in the country and many Indians in rural areas lack access to proper sanitation facilities and safe drinking water. However, at the same time, India's health care system also includes entities that meet or exceed international quality standards. The medical tourism business in India has been growing in recent years and as such India is a popular destination for medical tourists who receive effective medical treatment at lower costs than in developed countries.
    Healthcare in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-20-11 at 03:21 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #198
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What are you talking about? I never made any claims about UHC in third world countries with unsafe water issues and inadequate sanitation. Quote where I did if you can.

    Oh, you meant before that you were changing goalposts, I see. Before you had said you wanted "proof as life expectancy has been steadily increasing before the government got involved with medical care."

    That's what I provided proof of. Now, you want to throw in other factors. Okay, look at india that you mentioned the reason their UHC is not as effective as first world nations is their economy, unsafe drinking water and inadequate sanitation:

    "In recent times,[when?] India has eradicated mass famines, however the country still suffers from high levels of malnutrition and disease especially in rural areas. Water supply and sanitation in India is also a major issue in the country and many Indians in rural areas lack access to proper sanitation facilities and safe drinking water. However, at the same time, India's health care system also includes entities that meet or exceed international quality standards. The medical tourism business in India has been growing in recent years and as such India is a popular destination for medical tourists who receive effective medical treatment at lower costs than in developed countries.
    Healthcare in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I just got you to admit that the life expectancy statistic is a false measurement, of the effectiveness, of a medical care system.

    Thanks.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #199
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I just got you to admit that the life expectancy statistic is a false measurement, of the effectiveness, of a medical care system.

    Thanks.
    In your mind anyway!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #200
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    In your mind anyway!
    Is it or not?

    If life expectancy is an effective measurement, then India is a perfect example of why UHC is bad.

    If it isn't, then you should stop using the life expectancy statistic, as a measurement of effectiveness.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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