View Poll Results: Do You Support a Single Payer Health Care System?

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  • Yes

    39 39.39%
  • No

    54 54.55%
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    6 6.06%
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Thread: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

  1. #151
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I addressed your first point, as the rest was just bloviating from you, without anything to back it up, as usual.
    It is a terrible system, it removes incentives from individuals to better manage their own care, with their own money.
    You already admitted that we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world. And, how is it not a disadvantage for companies to have partially pay for employee health insurance when companies in other countries don't have to?

    I never said our government run system is the best in the world, I said the elderly in other countries would envy it, because you can currently use it as much as you wan
    Oh, I see, its not the best, its just that people who would use health care envy it. That makes perfect sense.



    Of course you will, because you don't ever research anything, beyond the superficial talking points of political people you like.
    Research out killing people because they don't fit with an ideology? I've read history books about it, but it was never something I cared to propose for a national policy. Why would any sane person?


    That's not what I said.
    Two things you're very good at, putting words into the mouths of others and dishonesty.
    You said we should deny medical care to people over 70 since they were just going to die anyway, and you propose that to save tax dollars. I stand by my mocking of your crass and inhumane notion.

    Cost effective treatments often put a dollar value on each person, the government can not afford to treat all people with the best medicine.
    It's not realistic, you live in a fantasy world.
    You are the one putting a dollar value on each person, deciding who dies to save tax dollars. I prefer to once again make the wealthy pay their fair share in tax revenues over your ultimate solution!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #152
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You already admitted that we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world. And, how is it not a disadvantage for companies to have partially pay for employee health insurance when companies in other countries don't have to?
    Then stop giving businesses a tax break on insurance.
    Very simple solution, although it would have to accompany other changes to the insurance market, like the removal of coverage mandates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Oh, I see, its not the best, its just that people who would use health care envy it. That makes perfect sense.
    Medicare is good for seniors now, because if offers near unlimited coverage, at a ridiculously unsustainable price.
    Who wouldn't love that.

    But it won't last, because it's not realistic, that is why it isn't the best.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Research out killing people because they don't fit with an ideology? I've read history books about it, but it was never something I cared to propose for a national policy. Why would any sane person?
    That's not what I said, again, you're intentionally being dishonest with my statements.
    Unless you have some kind of learning disability.
    If so, you're forgiven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You said we should deny medical care to people over 70 since they were just going to die anyway, and you propose that to save tax dollars. I stand by my mocking of your crass and inhumane notion.



    Countries with UHC deny lifesaving/life extending treatment, to save money, all the time.
    It's called cost effectiveness, it's the reality of UHC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You are the one putting a dollar value on each person, deciding who dies to save tax dollars. I prefer to once again make the wealthy pay their fair share in tax revenues over your ultimate solution!


    Health effectiveness councils do just that, you don't know what you're talking about, at all.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #153
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then stop giving businesses a tax break on insurance.
    Very simple solution, although it would have to accompany other changes to the insurance market, like the removal of coverage mandates.
    That does not address health care affordability to the employees unless there is UHC.

    Medicare is good for seniors now, because if offers near unlimited coverage, at a ridiculously unsustainable price.
    Its the same health care cost whether there is an insurance program or not, and it is not unsustainable. It is just not a priority to some people.

    But it won't last, because it's not realistic, that is why it isn't the best.
    Yes, I heard your alternative, just deny health care to those over 70. Who do you think is ever going to vote that into law? Get real.

    Countries with UHC deny lifesaving/life extending treatment, to save money, all the time.
    It's called cost effectiveness, it's the reality of UHC.
    Sounds like it should be right up your alley then, they have the same solution you want. So what's the problem?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #154
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That does not address health care affordability to the employees unless there is UHC.
    Of course it can, medical care can be effectively rationed based on the price relationship between consumers and producers of medical care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Its the same health care cost whether there is an insurance program or not, and it is not unsustainable. It is just not a priority to some people.
    That's not true at all.
    Price is based on consumption and production of resources, it's not fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes, I heard your alternative, just deny health care to those over 70. Who do you think is ever going to vote that into law? Get real.
    No, we'd just have to get real about what services should be supplied to the elderly, if we're going to keep funding their medical care.

    Cancer treatment for 80 year olds is not realistic.
    Other minor treatments for common things, perfectly fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Sounds like it should be right up your alley then, they have the same solution you want. So what's the problem?
    I don't want a government bureaucrat deciding what treatment is affordable for me, I'd prefer to pay for it myself.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #155
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course it can, medical care can be effectively rationed based on the price relationship between consumers and producers of medical care.
    Which country is that working for?


    Price is based on consumption and production of resources, it's not fixed.
    Neither does our tax base have to be to pay for it.

    No, we'd just have to get real about what services should be supplied to the elderly, if we're going to keep funding their medical care.
    What services do you think should be eliminated?

    Cancer treatment for 80 year olds is not realistic
    Oh I see you moved the age limit up a decade. Very generous of you! Not realistic for what? So you can save a couple bucks on your taxes? Some choose not to take treatment for cancer at 80. It should continue to be the patients choice.

    I choose life over tax breaks for the wealthy and I think you will find that the great majority of Americans agree.

    I don't want a government bureaucrat deciding what treatment is affordable for me, I'd prefer to pay for it myself.
    I thought that is what you were advocating with your suggestion to withhold medical care for those over 80 with cancer?
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-19-11 at 05:19 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #156
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Which country is that working for?
    Every single country that has ever had a market economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Neither does our tax base have to be to pay for it.
    But why should we?
    Before Medicare, elderly people had no problem paying for their own medical care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What services do you think should be eliminated?
    Depends, I don't want a UHC system, I think it's detrimental to society.

    But if I were the grand poobah of the cost effectiveness health council, I would eliminate treatments that were expensive and didn't realistically extend the life of the elderly.

    You have to remember that by the numbers a cost effectiveness person will measure many things, a person's net tax contributions, realistic lifespan and the cost of the life extending procedure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Oh I see you moved the age limit up a decade. Very generous of you! Not realistic for what? So you can save a couple bucks on your taxes? Some choose not to take treatment for cancer at 80. It should continue to be the patients choice.
    We can go back down to 70 if you wish.
    Doesn't matter what the patient wants, there comes a point where the financial interests of the state are considered more important.

    That is what happens with UHC, I'm surprised you're just learning this.
    What do you think the U.K.'s NICE board does?


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I choose life over tax breaks for the wealthy and I think you will find that the great majority of Americans agree.
    With state funded UHC, it doesn't matter what you want, that's the point.
    The state will not fund all you want.

    It's not realistic to provide you with all the medical care you want.
    Doesn't work that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I thought that is what you were advocating with your suggestion to withhold medical care for those over 80 with cancer?
    I don't want to withhold medical care from anyone but to think you can indefinitely fund any treatment for them, under a government system is ridiculous.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 03-19-11 at 05:25 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Every single country that has ever had a market economy.
    My question was in regard to health care. Which country handles health care the way you suggest?


    But why should we?
    Before Medicare, elderly people had no problem paying for their own medical care.
    Yeah, because they died young because of inadequate medical care.


    Depends, I don't want a UHC system, I think it's detrimental to society.
    Wel fortunately, Libertarians are very, very tiny voting block.


    But if I were the grand poobah of the cost effectiveness health council, I would eliminate treatments that were expensive and didn't realistically extend the life of the elderly.
    Just like what you imagine UHC to be, that's very interesting. So why is your plan superior if it does the same thing?


    You have to remember that by the numbers a cost effectiveness person will measure many things, a person's net tax contributions, realistic lifespan and the cost of the life extending procedure.
    Some plan you have there!

    We can go back down to 70 if you wish.
    Its your pipe dream, go with whatever you want!

    Doesn't matter what the patient wants, there comes a point where the financial interests of the state are considered more important.
    That is what happens with UHC, I'm surprised you're just learning this.
    What do you think the U.K.'s NICE board does With state funded UHC, it doesn't matter what you want, that's the point.
    The state will not fund all you want.
    Should be right up your alley then. What you imagine them to be is exactly what you suggest!

    It's not realistic to provide you with all the medical care you want.
    Doesn't work that way?
    Medicaid and Medicare have not created the death panels you simultaneously embrace as smart and deplore as what you imagine UHC to be. I see no reason UHC cannot be managed in the same way.

    I don't want to withhold medical care from anyone but to think you can indefinitely fund any treatment for them, under a government system is ridiculous.
    That's a nice contradiction you've got there in that one sentence.

    Which is it? Do you not want to withhold medical care? Or, do you not want to continue helping pay for it?
    Last edited by Catawba; 03-19-11 at 05:47 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #158
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    My question was in regard to health care. Which country handles health care the way you suggest?
    The United States did, as well as all the other European nations, before the introduction to price and service altering mandates/controls.

    We wouldn't be in our current mess if politicians stayed in their proper sphere's of legislation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yeah, because they died young because of inadequate medical care.
    Proof?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Wel fortunately, Libertarians are very, very tiny voting block.
    That makes no difference, you're just trolling now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Just like what you imagine UHC to be, that's very interesting. So why is your plan superior if it does the same thing?
    It's what happens with UHC systems.
    It's the inevitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Some plan you have there!
    It's not mine, I took it from the U.K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Its your pipe dream, go with whatever you want!
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Medicaid and Medicare have not created the death panels you simultaneously embrace as smart and deplore as what you imagine UHC to be. I see no reason UHC cannot be managed in the same way.
    Then why is it managed in the same way I described?
    I didn't say death panels, they're called cost effectiveness boards.

    Medicare and Medicaid are about to be turned on their heads in what they provide.
    It's already happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That's a nice contradiction you've got there in that one sentence.

    Which is it? Do you not want to withhold medical care? Or, do you not want to continue helping pay for it?
    False dilemma.

    It's not a contradiction, you just have such a narrowly focused belief system, that when anything new or different is introduced, you automatically reject it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #159
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    There is nothing you can do about Medicare or Medicaid. As a society these costs get absorbed somehow. You can not just make them go away. We are the only 1st world country that ignores its healthcare. Medicare and medicaid are mere stop gaps. They are not the budget problem, because you can not make them go away and there isn't much you can realistically do to trim them.
    What you're saying then is that while Medicare and Medicaid are busting our budget NOW, things will only get better if the goverment takes over the othe 80% of the health care in the country. That won't do any damage to the bottom lie....er line, right?

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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Really. There are price controls on phone and cable television. Are we having shortages?
    You're assuming regulations on cable exist to keep costs down.

    They do not, they exist to limit competition and keep costs up.

    Also, you're assuming that people opposed to government intrusion in the medical marketplace aren't equally opposed to government intrusion into the telecommunications market.

    Your whole argument is a non-sequitur.

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