View Poll Results: Do You Support a Single Payer Health Care System?

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  • Yes

    39 39.39%
  • No

    54 54.55%
  • Maybe

    6 6.06%
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Thread: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

  1. #141
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    There is nothing you can do about Medicare or Medicaid. As a society these costs get absorbed somehow. You can not just make them go away. We are the only 1st world country that ignores its healthcare. Medicare and medicaid are mere stop gaps. They are not the budget problem, because you can not make them go away and there isn't much you can realistically do to trim them.
    Sure you can, you can stop treating 70+ year olds for diseases, when they're going to die soon anyway.
    That's cost effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    The problem with our budget is much more on the revenue side than the expense side. This last recession allowed tax revenues to fall 20% from a base of $2.7T to $2.1T. Throw in another $ .1T from the extra burden of unemployment, and you can fix much of the annual deficit just by fixing the economy. At the very least, you will get much further in its remedy than you will ever get by cutting expenditures (which is counter productive, as expenditure cuts will also result in lost tax collections)
    That's bull crap to.
    We've had more and more money coming in, it just keeps getting spent on the least cost effective crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Its a lie? You are 'above' emotion? Sorry, but that is nothing but a very emotional response.

    How is it a lie? Your best retort is that our cancer survivability rates are high? Maybe, but that is nothing but a data point, not a complete argument. The table I set forth graphs per capita medical costs vs. life expectancy. You will note the US flag way out in right field. Why? Because our medical costs per capita are the highest in the world. You will also note the US flag is in the middle of the list. Why? Because US longevity is pretty mediocre vis-a-vis other 1st world countries. Let's see, highest cost and mediocre results translates to inefficiency. Prehaps you can give me a less emotional rebuttal next time.
    You said,
    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy
    As far as health insurance, it has to be an upgrade over one of the least efficient healthcare delivery systems in the free world.
    What you posted was not proof at all, it was life expectancy, a number that is not primarily determined by medical care.
    Your comparison is invalid, because it is framing an argument based on fiction, a falsity or lie.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Because every other nation on Earth has a universal care system,
    False.
    Not every nation has universal health care except us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    all of them pay much less per capita than we do,
    True.
    Of those that do, they typically pay less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    and the modern nations have better outcomes. That's why.
    False.
    The U.S. has some of the best cancer survival rates.
    And for many other things, we are right there with the rest of those nations with UHC.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Sure you can, you can stop treating 70+ year olds for diseases, when they're going to die soon anyway.
    That's cost effective.
    Surely you are not serious?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #144
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Surely you are not serious?
    Have you not heard of cost effective treatment?

    What i suggested goes a bit to far I'll admit, but that's (kind of) what will happen if we get a government paid system.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  5. #145
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Have you not heard of cost effective treatment?

    What i suggested goes a bit to far I'll admit, but that's (kind of) what will happen if we get a government paid system.
    A bit too far??? Yes, I've heard of cost effective treatment and it has nothing to do with denying medical care for those over 70.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #146
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A bit too far??? Yes, I've heard of cost effective treatment and it has nothing to do with denying medical care for those over 70.
    If we adopt a UHC style system, elderly people will be forced to have significant reductions in services, that's a guarantee.

    To drive the point home,
    "The average health care expense in 2002 was $11,089 per year for elderly people but only $3,352 per year for working-age people (ages 19-64)."

    The High Concentration of U.S. Health Care Expenditures

    One of the major reasons we pay more, is because the elderly have near unlimited access to all the medical care they want.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #147
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If we adopt a UHC style system, elderly people will be forced to have significant reductions in services, that's a guarantee.
    Only in your very vivid imagination. More people will have access to better care than they have now. That has been the result in most of the first world nations. We are the sole remaining laggard among first world nations not to provide UHC, and it is hurting us economically as well both in terms of healthcare cost and in creating a competitive disadvantage for American companies that have to pay part of the health care costs for employees that companies in other first world nations don't have to.

    To drive the point home,
    "The average health care expense in 2002 was $11,089 per year for elderly people but only $3,352 per year for working-age people (ages 19-64)."

    The High Concentration of U.S. Health Care Expenditures
    What point would that be? That elderly medical care is more expensive than for a young healthy person? This a surprise to you?


    One of the major reasons we pay more, is because the elderly have near unlimited access to all the medical care they want.
    How horrible!!!

    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #148
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Only in your very vivid imagination. More people will have access to better care than they have now. That has been the result in most of the first world nations. We are the sole remaining laggard among first world nations not to provide UHC, and it is hurting us economically as well both in terms of healthcare cost and in creating a competitive disadvantage for American companies that have to pay part of the health care costs for employees that companies in other first world nations don't have to.
    Really, so is that why other nations with UHC does the exact same thing?
    The elderly in nations with UHC would envy the services the Medicare provides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What point would that be? That elderly medical care is more expensive than for a young healthy person? This a surprise to you?
    Of course not, but its not cost effective to treat old people for things like cancer.
    More cost effective to send them home with pain pills and let them pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    How horrible!!!

    You mock me now, but UHC or not, it won't last.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #149
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Really, so is that why other nations with UHC does the exact same thing?
    The elderly in nations with UHC would envy the services the Medicare provides.
    You didn't address a single point I made. You say government run healthcare is a disaster in one breath and turn around in the next breath and say our government run healthcare is the best in the world. Which is it?


    Of course not, but its not cost effective to treat old people for things like cancer.
    More cost effective to send them home with pain pills and let them pass.
    Given the choice between your treatment of choice and UHC, I sure as hell am going with UHC. I prefer that to your ultimate solution.


    You mock me now, but UHC or not, it won't last.
    I mock your posts because they deserve it. To suggest that we just need to let people die so we can keep subsidizing the wealthy is the most mock-worthy idea I have seen in awhile. Your idea wins hands down!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #150
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    Re: Are You in Favor of a Single Payer Health Care System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You didn't address a single point I made. You say government run healthcare is a disaster in one breath and turn around in the next breath and say our government run healthcare is the best in the world. Which is it?
    I addressed your first point, as the rest was just bloviating from you, without anything to back it up, as usual.
    It is a terrible system, it removes incentives from individuals to better manage their own care, with their own money.

    I never said our government run system is the best in the world, I said the elderly in other countries would envy it, because you can currently use it as much as you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Given the choice between your treatment of choice and UHC, I sure as hell am going with UHC. I prefer that to your ultimate solution.
    Of course you will, because you don't ever research anything, beyond the superficial talking points of political people you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I mock your posts because they deserve it. To suggest that we just need to let people die so we can keep subsidizing the wealthy is the most mock-worthy idea I have seen in awhile. Your idea wins hands down!
    That's not what I said.
    Two things you're very good at, putting words into the mouths of others and dishonesty.

    Cost effective treatments often put a dollar value on each person, the government can not afford to treat all people with the best medicine.
    It's not realistic, you live in a fantasy world.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 03-19-11 at 03:53 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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