View Poll Results: If you support workers ability to collectively bargain, what do you support?

Voters
71. You may not vote on this poll
  • Workers have to join a specific union in order to get a job.

    8 11.27%
  • Workers have to join any workers union in order to get a job.

    4 5.63%
  • Workers don't have to join a union in order to get a job

    38 53.52%
  • Workers have to pay union dues in order to get a job.

    11 15.49%
  • Workers do not have to pay union dues in order to get a job.

    30 42.25%
  • Workers can form a different union if they do not like the unions that are avaliable.

    28 39.44%
  • Votes to join a union or other union related votes not being anonymous.

    3 4.23%
  • Votes to join a union or other union related votes being anonymous.

    33 46.48%
  • other.

    9 12.68%
  • I oppose unions.(please specify if it's all unions or just public sector unions you oppose).

    29 40.85%
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Thread: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?kkkkkkk

  1. #81
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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Work places where employees have to be part of the unions is no different than the employer demanding that employees wear a uniform ... I am for anything that makes the workplace more democratic.
    I'd place no limitations at all on private sector unions. Do what'cha' gotta' do. The market will dictate whether or not you get it.

    Public sector unions should be against the law. In lieu of that, all public sector union negotiations should go on in the public eye. And negotiators on the taxpayer side should be elected by the people.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'd place no limitations at all on private sector unions. Do what'cha' gotta' do. The market will dictate whether or not you get it.

    Public sector unions should be against the law. In lieu of that, all public sector union negotiations should go on in the public eye. And negotiators on the taxpayer side should be elected by the people.
    And your reasons for this would be __________________?????
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And your reasons for this would be __________________?????
    I assume I've shocked you?

    Reason for outlawing:

    Private Sector unions are controlled by the marketplace. If a company doesn't have the money? The union doesn't get what it wants. Private Sector unions operate from the environment that if the government doesn't have the money? They can just raise taxes to get the money.

    As to negotiating in the public eye. If the taxpayer is going to be footing the bill, which they always are, then the taxpayer should know what the union is negotiating for before the deal is struck.

    As to the negotiators on the taxpayer side being elected? That's easy, too. Accountability to the people they are supposedly representing.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #84
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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    It is ironic that when some of us on the left call for more citizen involvement in the decisions and actions of government we are chastised and berated with the heavy reminder that WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY.... WE ARE A REPUBLIC.

    If we are going to elect negotiators for contracts with pubic worker unions, do we also have public referendums on the other activities of government which spend tax payer dollars like the granting of contracts?

    I would very much like to have a vote on defense contracts.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is ironic that when some of us on the left call for more citizen involvement in the decisions and actions of government we are chastised and berated with the heavy reminder that WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY.... WE ARE A REPUBLIC.

    If we are going to elect negotiators for contracts with pubic worker unions, do we also have public referendums on the other activities of government which spend tax payer dollars like the granting of contracts?

    I would very much like to have a vote on defense contracts.
    Defense contracts work within budgets. Public Sector union negotiators say, "Budgets be damned. We want what we want when we want it."
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  6. #86
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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Defense contracts work within budgets. Public Sector union negotiators say, "Budgets be damned."
    Really now!?!?!?!?! Does the term "cost overrun" mean anything to you?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_overrun

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhee...5_Lightning_II

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor

    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Blogs/...uns.aspx#page1

    A new report from the Government Accountability Office released Tuesday could provide ammunition for critics in both camps, although its message may have a hard time being heard now that the U.S. is embroiled in a third military engagement in the Middle East. The GAO’s annual assessment of defense acquisition programs found the Pentagon was experiencing rapid cost-overruns in a host of major weapons systems, adding $135 billion to its long-term acquisition budget of $1.68 trillion, the report said.
    More than half the increase could not be blamed on an increase in the quantities procured, according to the report. Rather, 80 percent of the programs had experienced overruns in unit costs from initial estimates. For instance, the Joint Strike Fighter, a $284 billion program to replace nearly every jet in the Air Force, Navy and Marines over the next quarter century, had grown by $34 billion in projected future costs.
    Read more at http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Blogs/...08w7Rk88wRR.99

    http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-233SP

    And your answer in no way shape or form gives me a reason why people should not also be able to vote on budgetary items which come from their tax payer dollars. The government after all is one big budget with many many many sub categories. If we use your thinking and take it to its logical conclusion, since it is public money from tax payer dollars, then we should indeed be able to tell them with out vote to re-prioritize the sub categories in the budget to reflect what we want and where we want our money to go.

    And having been on the negotiating side for the union I can tell you with 100% accuracy and truthfulness that we were very very very much aware of the budget and what we had to work with. In fact, there were years when half of the arguing is about what the budget is and how to allocate it to various departments and sub categories.
    Last edited by haymarket; 10-08-12 at 01:21 PM.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Really now!?!?!?!?! Does the term "cost overrun" mean anything to you?

    Cost overrun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And your answer in no way shape or form gives me a reason why people should not also be able to vote on budgetary items which come from their tax payer dollars. The government after all is one big budget with many many many sub categories. If we use your thinking and take it to its logical conclusion, since it is public money from tax payer dollars, then we should indeed be able to tell them with out vote to re-prioritize the sub categories in the budget to reflect what we want and where we want our money to go.

    And having been on the negotiating side for the union I can tell you with 100% accuracy and truthfulness that we were very very very much aware of the budget and what we had to work with. In fact, there were years when half of the arguing is about what the budget is and how to allocate it to various departments and sub categories.
    But I wasn't talking about cost-overruns and other operations of government. I was talking about public sector unions. And their contractual demands. You're asking me to argue something I'm not arguing.

    Why shouldn't those who negotiate on behalf of the taxpayers be elected by the taxpayers?
    Why shouldn't union demands and managements' offers/counteroffers be made public?
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  8. #88
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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    But I wasn't talking about cost-overruns and other operations of government. I was talking about public sector unions. And their contractual demands. You're asking me to argue something I'm not arguing.

    Why shouldn't those who negotiate on behalf of the taxpayers be elected by the taxpayers?
    Why shouldn't union demands and managements' offers/counteroffers be made public?
    You have a point. But I think I do also in that all I am doing is asking you to be consistent. There is nothing different or sacred about spending that goes into the pockets of public workers as opposed to the pockets of government contractors. It is still coming from the taxpayer. If you want to be vigilant and give the citizen a voice on workers contracts, why not ALL their money that the government spends?

    You ask WHY should those things not be done? I guess the high and mighty answer is because we are not a direct democracy but a Constitutional democratic republic. The more practical answer is that because if it were, most likely nothing would ever get negotiated in a fish bowl like that.

    Although I must tell you that in contract after contract I was on the losing side of teacher unionists who advocated to leadership that we publicly announce our demands and keep the public informed about the progress of lack of it at the bargaining table.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #89
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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have a point. But I think I do also in that all I am doing is asking you to be consistent. There is nothing different or sacred about spending that goes into the pockets of public workers as opposed to the pockets of government contractors. It is still coming from the taxpayer. If you want to be vigilant and give the citizen a voice on workers contracts, why not ALL their money that the government spends?
    I'm not going to argue that, Haymarket. It's just silly to think that we should be able to elect the people who buy toilet seats.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Those who support workers ability to collectively bargain what do you support?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'm not going to argue that, Haymarket. It's just silly to think that we should be able to elect the people who buy toilet seats.
    If we are talking about a $30 toilet seat from Home Depot - yup, no need for citizen oversight. If we are talking about one costing tens of thousands of dollars in some government project where other items are similarly priced - perhaps we could use some citizen voting on such things.

    All I am trying to do is point out to you how your same argument can also apply to any taxpayer dollar expenditures of sizable substance.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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