Would radical Muslims leave the U.S. alone if....

digsbe said:

Do you think they dislike us because we support Israel?

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Well one things for sure Digsbe...

They don't hate your "freedoms" and your "way of life"...

There is a direct correlation between the Middle Easts ire of America and the creation if Israel...

digsbe said:

No, I don't think they would make peace with the US if we left the region. They us the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan as an excuse to hate America. If we leave they will find another excuse or focus more on other insane rhetoric. The conflict lies within them, and it must be resolved within them.

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This must be based on your conservative beliefs....
All of the Islamics must be included in any peace process. IMO, the problem is Israel based.
If they do not grow up and accept the existence of Israel, then - WWIII....Its their choice.
As it is we should have no trade, zero petroleum from any and all and Islamic nations - this should have occurred many years ago..
Fortunately, I think the Islamics are progressing, are "growing up".
We shall see.

While I can't say they'd "make peace" with us, whatever that means, they'd certainly have less reason to be bothering us if we'd just leave them to their own devices. They have just as much right to self-determination as we do. Let them.

Redress said:

And see, what I see is making excuses. Both religions attract a radical element. Both radical elements can be violent. Both try and demonize the other.

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List of Islamic Terror Attacks



Really? I think you are building a strawman and making a bad incorrect correlation here. The numbers are not even close.

Jetboogieman said:

Well one things for sure Digsbe...

They don't hate your "freedoms" and your "way of life"...

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Really, that's for "sure" Jet? There are no radical muslims that hate America and the West because I can draw a picture of Muhammed ****ing a pig while making a comment that its even better because the pigs still an adolescent and there's not a damn legal thing they can do about it? There's no radical muslims that hate America and the West because two men can plow each others asses and then skip through the streets holding hands and kissing, proclaiming their love for one another without any fear of the state stoning them to death? There's no radical muslims that hate America and the West because an, in their eyes, scantally clad woman could be the boss of and order around muslim men on a routine basis?

Do I think the "hate us for our freedoms" line is overused and over blown. Definitely. But its absolutely ridiculous to suggest that "for sure" that there is not hatred or resentment towards the west and the US for some of those things as some kind of absolute truth.

Jetboogieman said:

Well one things for sure Digsbe...

They don't hate your "freedoms" and your "way of life"...

There is a direct correlation between the Middle Easts ire of America and the creation if Israel...

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Really?

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

-Osama Bin Laden in a "letter to America"

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Lets not deny that which is before us.

digsbe said:

Do you think they dislike us because we support Israel?

That's because there are no radical Christian theocracies that are bent on destroying another nation...

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Not really so..
George Bush and the conservatives destroyed Saddam Hussein's Iraq ten year ago.
Of course we are not nearly as evil, buts its close, too close for comfort...
And , in the same position, I may have done the same as George....So ,we cannot have nut cases running a nation.

They would not. Radical Islam hates the US for it's success, while the ME with all of it's turmoil leave the majority of people in poverty. Radicals like to target the US as the cause for this poverty, as they feel our exploitation of their lands makes us rich at their expense. While there is some truth to this, the main reason these people are poor is bad government and Medieval beliefs. We are seeing that some of these peoples are waking up to some of this, as the riots and protests show and some of the leadership are using the radical Islam approach of "blame the West." However, most of these are asking for help from the West. Thus, regardless of pullout or whahave you, radical Islam will blame the US for all of the ME's shortcomings.

We are hated for who we are, and this hatred magnifies the nature of what we do.

Idealogues typically of the right ignore the effects of what we do in terms of exacerbating the hatred. Apologists typically of the left ignore the fact we are hated for who we are.

Both are clueless.

ReverendHellh0und said:

Really?

Lets not deny that which is before us.

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His goals are ultimately political, he wants all American and western forces out of the Middle East and he wants Israel destroyed.

Everything else is secondary.

digsbe said:

Do you think they dislike us because we support Israel?

That's because there are no radical Christian theocracies that are bent on destroying another nation...

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Draw the distinction between Muslims and radical Muslims. Most Muslims dont give two shakes about Israel and care even less about Palestine. They truly dont. Go to places like Qatar, expatriated Iranians, UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman...others...they are invested in business and personal success. They also dont hate America...if anything they really LIKE talking about our relationship. I think what they really wanty more than anything else is for us to understand them...see them from their point of view. When the topic of Israel or Palestine comes up, my experince has been they are purely ambivalent about both.

Radical Islam on the other hand also doesnt CARE about Israel or Palestine...they USE Israel and Palestine. People want to say that they hate the US because of our support for Israel. OK...you can make the argument. But that doesnt explain radical Islam killing of other Muslims. That doesnt explain radical Islam in India, the Philipines, Chechnya, England, Denmark, and everywhere were there is radical Islam. Radical Islam wants to kill anyone not muslim first and then any mulsim who is not of the proper sect of Islam. Israel makes for a convenient rallying cry. But anyone that thinks Muslims as a whole give a **** about Palestine...you arent paying very close attention.

Jetboogieman said:

His goals are ultimately political, he wants all American and western forces out of the Middle East and he wants Israel destroyed.

Everything else is secondary.

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Seriously man, you can't discount this part for your part. I agree with you regarding isreal and our being in the mideast, but he makes no distinction as to his goals and demands as secondary in nature.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

blah blah blah



If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

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It can't be any clearer.

ReverendHellh0und said:

Really?
.....
obl, like it or not, even if he is an extremeist scumbag, and he is, but it does have some points..
We are not a perfect nation nor people, and if some think we are............they are the problem.
Notice, no capitalization and "it" rather than "he".
And I think as poorly about its supporters as I do it

Lets not deny that which is before us.

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obl, like it or not, even if he is an extremeist scumbag, and he is, but it does have some points..
We are not a perfect nation nor people, and if some think we are............they are the problem.
Notice, no capitalization and "it" rather than "he".
And I think as poorly about its supporters as I do it

Jetboogieman said:

His goals are ultimately political, he wants all American and western forces out of the Middle East and he wants Israel destroyed.

Everything else is secondary.

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I work at my job for money. Everything else is secondary. That doesn't mean I don't also work at my job because I enjoy what I do, like my co-workers, or have a sense of purpose from it simply because they're secondary.

If someone said "They ONLY hate us for our freedoms" then you'd have a point. People don't say that. You however are specifically, unquestionably, broadly stating they do NOT hate us for that reason in any fashion. That is completely incompatable with stating that they're "secondary" reasons for why they hate us in regards to the text Rev posted. A "secondary" reason is still a reason.

Zyphlin said:

Really, that's for "sure" Jet? There are no radical muslims that hate America and the West because I can draw a picture of Muhammed ****ing a pig while making a comment that its even better because the pigs still an adolescent and there's not a damn legal thing they can do about it? There's no radical muslims that hate America and the West because two men can plow each others asses and then skip through the streets holding hands and kissing, proclaiming their love for one another without any fear of the state stoning them to death? There's no radical muslims that hate America and the West because an, in their eyes, scantally clad woman could be the boss of and order around muslim men on a routine basis?

Do I think the "hate us for our freedoms" line is overused and over blown. Definitely. But its absolutely ridiculous to suggest that "for sure" that there is not hatred or resentment towards the west and the US for some of those things as some kind of absolute truth.

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Why is it Orthodox Jews don't attack 'our way of life'? Why don't Orthodox Christians? I doubt many of those people approve of our way of life so why is it we don't have them blowing themselves up in super markets? To suggest that people actually hate us cause we're allowed to say whatever we want in our society is quite silly and superficial. It's like a 15 year old girl pretending people at school hate her cause she's beautiful and not cause she's a total bitch to classmates.

earthworm said:

obl, like it or not, even if he is an extremeist scumbag, and he is, but it does have some points..
We are not a perfect nation nor people, and if some think we are............they are the problem.
Notice, no capitalization and "it" rather than "he".
And I think as poorly about its supporters as I do it

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what?

Hatuey said:

Why is it Orthodox Jews don't attack 'our way of life'? Why don't Orthodox Christians? I doubt many of those people approve of our way of life so why is it we don't have them blowing themselves up in super markets? To suggest that people actually hate us cause we're allowed to say whatever we want in our society is quite silly and superficial. It's like a 15 year old girl pretending people at school hate her cause she's beautiful and not cause she's a total bitch to classmates.

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Jew's dont have history in the past 20 years of rioting and attacking because a cartoonist drew a depiction of their god. Christians leaders of large extremist movements that actively attack the United States don't create letters condemning the freedoms of America.

You're building nothing but a strawman Hautey. Never have I once suggested that the only reason they hate us is because of our way of life or because of our freedoms. But I do think its a portion of the whole, fuel for the fire if you will. Now, would that blaze ignite in as many people or as powerfully if we weren't acting within the Middle East? No, I don't think so. But that doesn't mean there is not hate for those things.

I think there is disdain, and yes hate, in the "radical" portions of Islam for the West's way of life. I think the West's action in the middle east help ferment a reality and a situation where that disdain and hate mixes with the hatred for the West's actions creating a hightened response.

I think if the West was not involved in the Middle East from the start we'd see significantly less of the issues with radical muslims that we have. I also think that if the West involved itself in the Middle East the same way but was more in line with their way of life that the trouble would be somewhat, less. I think our actions in the middle east are FAR more involved in their "hatred" for the West, but I think its absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the other part is absolutely positively not involved. That they "don't", even in part, hate the west and the U.S. for their lifestyle.

For your high school example, the geek in school might "Hate" the bully jock primarily because the jock beat the crap out of him one time and always picks on him. He also hates him because he treats women like crap, gets away with stuff in class constantly, and teases other kids as well. Those are all secondary issues and things that, if not for the first part, he'd probably not feel as strong about. But its not in a vacuum, and the first issue exasserbates the later making the hate legitimate in all cases even if the first issue is the "strongest" and the others are "secondary".

ReverendHellh0und said:

Seriously man, you can't discount this part for your part. I agree with you regarding isreal and our being in the mideast, but he makes no distinction as to his goals and demands as secondary in nature.


It can't be any clearer.

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Bin Laden has already stated what the US must do. We aren't going to implement Sharia Law. However, these terrorist organizations know the only way to defeat American is for the US to implode. I bet if we left the middle east, stopped backing Israel, and promised to stay out of middle eastern affairs UNLESS we are attacked/provoked, the terrorist groups would agree to it. We will never be at peace with extremist Muslims, but I suspect the Muslim nations will fight amongst themselves and with others before they go after America.

Zyphlin said:

Jew's dont have history in the past 20 years of rioting and attacking because a cartoonist drew a depiction of their god.

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That's not a history. That's an incident.

Christians leaders of large extremist movements that actively attack the United States don't create letters condemning the freedoms of America.

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That's not what I asked. Why is it that large Christian movements don't attack us when supposedly they hate the same freedoms that Muslims do?

You're building nothing but a strawman Hautey. Never have I once suggested that the only reason they hate us is because of our way of life or because of our freedoms. But I do think its a portion of the whole, fuel for the fire if you will. Now, would that blaze ignite in as many people or as powerfully if we weren't acting within the Middle East? No, I don't think so. But that doesn't mean there is not hate for those things.

I think there is disdain, and yes hate, in the "radical" portions of Islam for the West's way of life. I think the West's action in the middle east help ferment a reality and a situation where that disdain and hate mixes with the hatred for the West's actions creating a hightened response.

I think if the West was not involved in the Middle East from the start we'd see significantly less of the issues with radical muslims that we have. I also think that if the West involved itself in the Middle East the same way but was more in line with their way of life that the trouble would be somewhat, less. I think our actions in the middle east are FAR more involved in their "hatred" for the West, but I think its absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the other part is absolutely positively not involved. That they "don't", even in part, hate the west and the U.S. for their lifestyle.

For your high school example, the geek in school might "Hate" the bully jock primarily because the jock beat the crap out of him one time and always picks on him. He also hates him because he treats women like crap, gets away with stuff in class constantly, and teases other kids as well. Those are all secondary issues and things that, if not for the first part, he'd probably not feel as strong about. But its not in a vacuum, and the first issue exasserbates the later making the hate legitimate in all cases even if the first issue is the "strongest" and the others are "secondary".

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Here is what I think of your sophistry:

You're incredibly ignorant of the actual history of the US in Middle Eastern countries. The United States didn't become a place associated with 'freedoms' in the last 40-50 years. So then why didn't Muslims attack us when we were giving women the right to vote? Drive? Why didn't they attack us when we were legalizing strip clubs and speak easies? Why didn't they start attacking us from the beginning? Well obviously logistically this would have been hard to achieve in the 18th century but the 19th century presented many opportunities for Muslims to come to the US in droves and attack us but they simply never did. Muslim violence only really began in the latter half of the 20th century. Interestingly enough, US involvement in the Middle East has only intensified during this same period. The relationship is obvious and it boils down to economics, not values.

US involvement in the Middle East has allowed for the economic disenfranchisement of millions of Muslims. When we haven't been in full support of their dictators, we've been toppling their democratically elected governments. America's rhetoric of freedom has been just that, rhetoric. We've tried to sell millions of people around the globe the idea that we are representatives of 'freedom' while supporting the exact opposite. So how could they possibly hate us for something we don't have? How can America be the home of the free when just 30-40 years ago the National Guard was shooting down students? Sure, people look at America as a place where there is the possibility to live better. However, people don't hate places like that. They flock to them. Cubans, Mexicans, Africans, they all flock to the US and don't commit acts of terrorism even though their countries do not have the freedoms that we have. So why is it that so many Muslims engage in terrorism when so many other countries are barred from the same freedoms?

Well it's simple. South America and Africa do not have the economic or social infrastructure in order to carry out attacks on the US. Mexican extremist groups have sporadically attacked the US though without much success. African violence is restricted mostly to Africa because of geography and economic funding. There is also the role of the economic elite who have little to gain from funding terrorism against the US (This is because well, we put the elite in these countries in power). The Middle East on the other hand has immense amounts of cash flow and an economic elite who have been oppressed by the same governments we have funded.

So in essence, what is/are the cause(s) of terrorism against the US? Well, there answer is money and interventionism. Do you honestly believe that if we hadn't created a new country and intervened in so many conflicts in the Middle East they would have a real problem with some idiot being able to draw Mohammed? Doubt it. It's not like America suddenly developed a negative attitude towards Muslims within the last 30 years. It's not like they suddenly realized we didn't like them as much as they liked us so they changed their attitude. It's not like Muslims all of the sudden realized that most of their countries don't have the freedoms ours do. It is that kind of ethnocentric and euro-centric that fuels our actions not theirs.

We regard Muslims as being backwards people and incapable of admiring the same possibilities everyone else in the world seems to admire and aspire to gain. We regard our civilization as being 'free' and thus a cause for jealousy. We see them as being hateful of what we have as thus have justification for fighting back when our intervention is the only root to their problem.

Wonderful job there Hautey, shall you be beating up the Cowardly Lion and the Tinman since you've completely thrashed the Scarecrow you've created? The irony of you lecturing about sophistry is hillarious. Thanks for the "history" lesson but you didn't tell me a thing I didn't already know, or haven't already stated. I've stated, here and elsewhere on the forums, that primary reason for their hatred is our involvement in the middle east. I've stated the notion that their (radical muslims, not "muslims" ss you continue to try and misdirect with) displeasure or hatred for the west and the US's way of life and "freedom" would not reach the level and magnitude that it is, nor have the way of manifesting itself that it does, if not for their issues with us involving ourselves in the Middle East.

You go off on a topic of what causes terrorism against the US? All well and good for the strawman you're beaitng up, but has nothing to do with what I said. Their "hatred" for the U.S. and the causes of terrorism, while similar, are not identical things. You can ask all the asinine retarded questions you want, but perhaps you should actually read my previous posts that already answered said questions before you asked them.

RADICAL muslims, since you seem to refuse to actually address the topic or what people are saying, view our society as a sinful creation that violates the edicts of their god in extreme ways. And as their hatred for our actions within their holy land grows so too does the rest of their disdain for us and our culture.

Saying that many radical muslims hate our way of life doesn't mean that they're not drawn to the activities they do because of their poverty. It doesn't mean that our actions in the middle east aren't a huge factor in their views and actions towards us. It doesn't mean that all muslims the world over feel that way. It doesn't mean it would've manifested itself in this fashion or to this level if not for our involvement in the middle east. All it means is that many radical muslism hate our way of life, that's it. Anything else you try to throw in there is you adding on or reading more into a statement based on your own stereotyped views.

Redress said:

Did you miss the terrorists arrested in Michigan who planned to kill cops and bomb their funerals? Guess what, they where a radical christian group. That is only one example. Christians and muslims are nothing but two religions with very similar beliefs and the same drawing of radicals.

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So they weren't advocating the extermination of all Muslims?

Would the inertia change should we be close to uninterested in the entire region, including Israel? Possibly, but no way to know. However, as the material, political, and spiritual interests are concentrated in that region, I would find entertaining the notion rather ridiculous to say the least.

Mellie said:

I've heard people say that radical Muslims are only angry at us because our soldiers are in the Middle East disrupting their countries.

Do you believe if we completely left all Muslim countries, the radical Muslims would make peace with the U.S. and not plan to terrorize us anymore (e.g. 9/11/2001)?

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Disrupted their countries? We destroyed their civilizations and killed their families. They will never stop hating us now, and terrorism against us is going to INCREASE because of this.

No. They'd claim we are still being oppressive through our diplomatic and fiscal policies, in all likelihood.

Yea, I think many radical Muslim terrorists would leave the US alone. They may still be a bit vengeful, but a withdrawal and a nice official apology would satisfy many people, including myself. Yet, the US has not only ****ed with the Middle East. They've had their hand in every nook and cranny of the planet. Pissing off Christians, Muslims and Jews alike. The things they've done to say, Central America, is irreversible and hate will always radiate from that part of the world.