View Poll Results: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

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Thread: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Nope, just true.
    You can scream the truth from the mountain top and be wrong at the top of your voice.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    ^ I mostly agree with you, but the problem is that many Creationists think that humans are static in nature, that God made us the way we are and we are never going to be better than this. i.e. we are not currently evolving. If you study basic biology you'll know that even DNA in a living human is changing, right now. Genes turn off and others turn on, new mutations happen, some good, some bad.

    There are different degrees of absurdity within the debate. Some discussions are reasonable, like the ones you're talking about. Religion and evolution can co-exist so long as God put it into motion, but there are people who won't even accept evolution itself. They reject all scientific rationales.

    I've been to Europe and I've lived in Canada a couple of years now. When it comes to this debate, the world thinks we are a laughing stock, and I am embarrassed for our country. I have to apologize on behalf of America every time some foreigner brings up the subject. On one had we have one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth whose scientists and engineers are bar none, but we have a majority population that doesn't even believe in evolution. It's madness.
    Why not present just ONE MUTATION of human DNA that has added unto the existing strain of DNA instead of making the already existing strain weaker and defected. Mutation always takes away. Having a dormant DNA trait in the structure is not evolution, as Horizontal Evolution is indeed a fact of science (evolution within the same species) aka, Micro Evolution, if such were not a fact the first time that mankind came into contract with the common cold virus and man could not adapt to his surroundings man would have ceased to exist. But Horizontal Evolution is a far cry from Vertical Evolution of Macro Life, having all life evolve from DEAD MATTER into a single cell into more complex life and finally into mankind...is simply an unprovable fairy tale.
    Last edited by Walter; 02-26-11 at 10:27 PM.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    ^ I mostly agree with you, but the problem is that many Creationists think that humans are static in nature, that God made us the way we are and we are never going to be better than this. i.e. we are not currently evolving. If you study basic biology you'll know that even DNA in a living human is changing, right now. Genes turn off and others turn on, new mutations happen, some good, some bad.

    There are different degrees of absurdity within the debate. Some discussions are reasonable, like the ones you're talking about. Religion and evolution can co-exist so long as God put it into motion, but there are people who won't even accept evolution itself. They reject all scientific rationales.

    I've been to Europe and I've lived in Canada a couple of years now. When it comes to this debate, the world thinks we are a laughing stock, and I am embarrassed for our country. I have to apologize on behalf of America every time some foreigner brings up the subject. On one had we have one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth whose scientists and engineers are bar none, but we have a majority population that doesn't even believe in evolution. It's madness.

    Part of the problem lies in how evolution is often framed. As a scientific theory, it is normally presented as natural events that occurred with a total absence of divine guidance.

    Now, hold on a sec. I'm prefectly aware that a scientist who said "God guided evolution to produce the lifeforms that currently exist", in an official peer-reviewed thesis paper, would find himself in quite a mess with his fellow scientists. I know perfectly well that "and THEN a MIRACLE happens!" is not an acceptible corrolary to a hypothesis, or an acceptible step in solving an equation.

    The problem is that evolution has been rammed up our collective arses as a divisive line between the scientific and the religious, and both sides have engaged in their share of the ramming and the dividing.

    Many denominations, including Catholicism, have chosen to consider the Genesis account to be allegorical rather than literal, and to specify that while God was the author of Creation and it's guiding hand, that that doesn't mean that scientific theories of evolution are not themselves valid within their own context.... which is to say, the scientific realm of thought, rather than the spiritual realm of faith.

    Yet, a small but loud minority of the anti-religious have chosen to denigrate this position and disparage the moderate denominations for daring to inject God into the discussion at all. This provokes a counter-reaction that widens the divisiveness of the issue.

    I take a slightly different tack.

    The God I believe in is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and infinite. He is not bound by the laws of physics; they are merely tools in His toolbox, to be bent or broken as He wishes. Time runs backwards, forwards or sideways at His whim. All the things that science thinks took place over 4.3 billion years could have been done by Him in six "Days" easily.... think of it as a celestical "fast forward button" if you like. So the scientists could be both right and wrong... right, in that these processes would have taken 4.3 billion years from the human POV, if they occured naturally and without intervention... wrong, in that the Divine guidance they choose not to address was actually in control, and it happened at whatever pace God willed in whatever period of time he chose to percieve as "six days".

    I believe the God created the universe and everything in it. I do not know whether Genesis is intended to be taken literally, or as a symbolic/allegorical explanation that was as much as the people of that day were capable of understanding. I don't worry about it. God will fill me in on the seeming dichotomy later.

    It's a divisive issue because certain people on both sides want to make it that way. It doesn't have to be though. We could choose to live and let live. I won't criticize of you if you think it all happened through natural processes, if you'll allow me to say that I believe God was in control, whatever the details might be, without sniggering up your sleeve.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You can scream the truth from the mountain top and be wrong at the top of your voice.
    Except it isn't wrong. It is supported by an absurd amount of evidence, unlike religion which is supported by jack squat.

    Reality matters. Deal with it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except it isn't wrong. It is supported by an absurd amount of evidence, unlike religion which is supported by jack squat.

    Reality matters. Deal with it.
    See, this is another example. The whole "jack squat" and "deal with it" nonsense is nothing more then an emotional release, not a logical argument. Hardly scientific at all.

    You take facts and rearrange them in ways they don't apply to the principal anymore. Yes you can source those facts, which is how you can scream the truth, but you misapply them, which is how you can be wrong at the top of your voice. Add to that all the emotion, and you have nothing left but molten irrationality.

    I suggest trying to address the topic either in a rational fashion, or not at all.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Scourge99, Temporal, Jerry, Walter, Goshin & Cephus all immediately started down the hole of debating evolution.
    That was not what this thread was to be about.
    I bet you can't back up out of the hole and describe and debate where the difference originates in the sides taken in the evolution debate.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Scourge99, Temporal, Jerry, Walter, Goshin & Cephus all immediately started down the hole of debating evolution.
    That was not what this thread was to be about.
    I bet you can't back up out of the hole and describe and debate where the difference originates in the sides taken in the evolution debate.

    Well, since you're so damn smart, why don't you edumacate us hicks then?

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Scourge99, Temporal, Jerry, Walter, Goshin & Cephus all immediately started down the hole of debating evolution.
    That was not what this thread was to be about.
    I bet you can't back up out of the hole and describe and debate where the difference originates in the sides taken in the evolution debate.
    If you take a moment to actually digest my posts, you will see that I haven't debated evolution at all. In answering the OP's question directly, I described the state of the debate; which is not the same as engaging in the debate.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you take a moment to actually digest my posts, you will see that I haven't debated evolution at all. In answering the OP's question directly, I described the state of the debate; which is not the same as engaging in the debate.
    You have just cried that other people have not debated evolution the way you want them to.
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    There is no debate on evolution. It is established fact and theory. Any debate is on the false "controversy" and is irrelevant.
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