View Poll Results: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

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    38 53.52%
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Thread: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

  1. #171
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I consider it more a debate between the educated and the ignorant.
    More like real life vs fantasy...

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    Well, trash is a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said something more like let's not make assumptions or guesses.

    That's cool that you're a molecular biologist, what research do you focus on?

    Everything you basically said was discussed in court cases on intelligent design, when they tried to pass it off as science - almost the exact same arguments if you can imagine. That things are too perfect to happen by chance, etc. Every single example of that was disproved by modern evolutionary theory - they can be explained.
    When I split your argument down, it is basically this: "It's all speculation and unproved assertions. Evolution cannot prove that a direct creature was the missing link between two proposed evolutionary species." This as an unproven assertation on your part, because it's not speculation, there's quite a bit of evidence behind it.
    On the other hand, for your argument, you say: "I believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis. I believe God created life. I believe life was intelligently designed by God the Creator. I don't believe the randomness of unguided evolution could have done this."
    I'm seeing your beliefs - I'm not seeing how scientific evidence verifies them.
    Its a methodological problem. YECs such as digsbe think like this:

    1) Assumption: The bible is literal truth and inerrant.
    2) Assumption: My sects interpretation of the Bible is unquestionable.
    3) Evolution/geology contradicts #1/#2 therefore Evolution/geology is wrong.

    YEC arguments center entirely around criticizing "holes" in evolutionary theory. Most of these "holes" are strawmen which have been explained over and over again. Just visit the FlatEarthSociety if you want a living proof example of something similar.

    Even if evolution was wrong then YEC would still have to prove YEC theories are correct. You'll notice ZERO scientific support for YEC theories. That is exactly where it becomes obvious that YEC is not even a viable alternative. It is intellectually bankrupt. It is a position held only by irrational certainty, ignorance, and indoctrination.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #173
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Its a methodological problem. YECs such as digsbe think like this:

    1) Assumption: The bible is literal truth and inerrant.
    2) Assumption: My sects interpretation of the Bible is unquestionable.
    3) Evolution/geology contradicts #1/#2 therefore Evolution/geology is wrong.

    YEC arguments center entirely around criticizing "holes" in evolutionary theory. Most of these "holes" are strawmen which have been explained over and over again. Just visit the FlatEarthSociety if you want a living proof example of something similar.

    Even if evolution was wrong then YEC would still have to prove YEC theories are correct. You'll notice ZERO scientific support for YEC theories. That is exactly where it becomes obvious that YEC is not even a viable alternative. It is intellectually bankrupt. It is a position held only by irrational certainty, ignorance, and indoctrination.
    Lulz, I am clearly wrong. You win.

    I'm done here. Every thread like this degenerates into a "creationists are stoopid!" "Ignorant of science"!11!1!. Let's debate with respect and reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
    That's cool that you're a molecular biologist, what research do you focus on?
    I mainly focus on cancer research. It's amazing what things we are discovering.
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  4. #174
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I
    I'm a molecular biologist
    No, you are a molecular biology UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I've read enough publications and have studied enough genomic sequences and protein products to see that these things didn't happen by random chance or chaotic mutations.
    I HIGHLY doubt that as an undergrad. You've been taught the basics. Have you even completed your organic chemistry courses yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Evolution cannot prove that a direct creature was the missing link between two proposed evolutionary species. They haven't looked at DNA or genomic sequences and found where the mutations have occurred that led to beneficial protein products that produced a new trait. It's all speculation and unproved assertions.
    what hypothesis do you propose? What would you reasonably expect?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I believe life was intelligently designed by God the Creator.
    Understatement of the year!

    You don't just believe that life was intelligently designed. You believe that every single piece of life that has ever existed on earth, including dinosaurs, lived less than 8,000 years ago.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  5. #175
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Lulz, I am clearly wrong. You win.
    This isn't the high school debate team. There is no winning in debate.

    If YEC had any validity then you'd be jumping out of your seat presenting the evidence and reasons its true. All you can do is hold up your holy book and proclaim your irrational certainty in a literal/inerrant/fundamentalist interpretation. Ok, SHOW US what you claim is supported by evidence and reason! That is what debating is all about. Do you only have opinion?

    All you have is criticism about "holes" in evolution. Do you have ANYTHING that shows YEC is true?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Its a methodological problem. YECs such as digsbe think like this:

    1) Assumption: The bible is literal truth and inerrant.
    2) Assumption: My sects interpretation of the Bible is unquestionable.
    3) Evolution/geology contradicts #1/#2 therefore Evolution/geology is wrong.

    YEC arguments center entirely around criticizing "holes" in evolutionary theory. Most of these "holes" are strawmen which have been explained over and over again. Just visit the FlatEarthSociety if you want a living proof example of something similar.

    Even if evolution was wrong then YEC would still have to prove YEC theories are correct. You'll notice ZERO scientific support for YEC theories. That is exactly where it becomes obvious that YEC is not even a viable alternative. It is intellectually bankrupt. It is a position held only by irrational certainty, ignorance, and indoctrination.
    Question? Just how does a truth qualify as being an assumption? A truth is demonstrable, either objectively qualified as a fact through the production of testable evidences or accepted as truth beyond reason of doubt as based upon the prima facie evidence, which lacks a counter argument based upon objective evidence that can dismiss that which is held as truth...in fact theoretical science bases its conclusions not upon Physical Science as per the yielding of Observed, Reproducible Experiments but upon the observance of today's known facts that (here comes the catch all philosophical phrase) point to a projected outcome. And believe me..there is far than enough objective evidence to give anyone with common sense a REASON to doubt, the most obvious is the falsification each and every time that Vertical Evolution is tested by the Scientific Method of the Observed, Reproducible Experimentation. Yet not one experiment can falsify CREATION as a viable explanation for the origin of man...if so, produce it.

    Whether derived through facts or prima facie in nature.....TRUTH is not based upon assumption. I believe the field that you wish to engage is Philosophy not SCIENCE. You know the supposed question of the ages....WHAT IS TRUTH, What is the purpose of man...yada, yada, yada, a field that accepts the ignorance of asking a question that is ASSUMED has no answer as a sign of supposed intellect instead of pomposity, simply because you do not like the answer to the question.......Intelligent Design.

    Such Pomposity even has Stephen Hawking rejecting Physical Science in a emotional need to dismiss God from the equation with his latest insane suggestion, "The Universe Spontaneously popped into existence from Nothing." Science...real science proves that if there ever was a time when nothing is all that existed, NOTHING WOULD STILL BE IN EXISTENCE TODAY as -0- + -0- = -0-
    Last edited by Walter; 03-04-11 at 08:03 PM.

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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    no debate here with me
    I believe in god
    I also believe in evolution, god gave me a brain and I simply choose to USE it like he intended
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I disagree, I think the holes make it not feasible and it's not proven. I think it's the best secular explanation and that's why many chose to accept it.
    Of course it's not proven, but the evidence for evolution is astounding, and to argue against evolution is to argue against all the fossil's we have found. There is also evidence of evolution that we can see happening today, with virus's, that mutant, and adapt so they can survive against our medicine.
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then
    When I was 7, due to pressure from relatives, my family started attending church. The first few times I was in the pews, but I was old enough so I was dropped off in Bible study for little kids. The class was studying Noah and the Ark. New to this stuff I thought it was a silly story, could never happen like that, and said so. I got stood in the corner. I told my Mom about it, she was upset, Dad not so much, so we went the following week. The next class got my knuckles rapped with a ruler and stood in the corner. I recall loud words between the nun and my Mom in the hall. We never went back.

    So, was I educated 7 year old? No. Was I rational? Yes. Was I being indoctrinated at a very young age? Yes. Was it ever going to work? No. Had scientists been indoctrinating me? No.

    Now that Iím much older: Do I respect authority? Yes Do I question authority? Yes. Do I verify and test what Iím told? Yes? Do I believe in evolution? No. Do I think evolution is a proven fact? Yes. Still the same person I was at 7? Yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Excellent. Have no idea what this has to do with the debate at hand though? So you say evolution is a fact and because you went to a Bible study 2 times, you were subjected to indoctrination. What does that have to do with the poll or thread?
    Yes, you missed the point. The point is: How does a 7 year old decide that stories in a Bible are not factual. It certainly is not because I was a scientist or religious as adults are. And this belies the basis of the poll and the thread. So what does make a 7 year old decide that Noah and the Ark is not factual?

  10. #180
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    Re: In the US: Is the debate on evolution between scientists and the religious?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Yes, you missed the point. The point is: How does a 7 year old decide that stories in a Bible are not factual.
    Children decide allot of things based on how they feel. You did not like the class, hence did not like the stories etc. Perfectly normal for a 7 year old.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    It certainly is not because I was a scientist or religious as adults are. And this belies the basis of the poll and the thread.


    The feelings of a 7 year old are not evidence of anything as far as I can tell? So you did not think it was real, so what? You only went twice and did not like it either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    So what does make a 7 year old decide that Noah and the Ark is not factual?
    Lots of things. Too long a list to go into here. The mind of a 7 year old is not that developed, so it means little as far as I can tell.

    At this point it has also added nothing to the debate?
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