View Poll Results: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

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  • A libertarian state- complete liberty

    11 28.21%
  • Communism- complete equality and unison of goals

    10 25.64%
  • A Representative Democracy

    1 2.56%
  • Other- Explain

    17 43.59%
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Thread: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

  1. #51
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Yet the value of moral currency would not necessarily be monetary... in fact, it would not be monetary because economics would have no meaning in a perfectly moral world. In fact, I would say that in a perfectly moral world, proportional moral compenstation would also have no meaning. Doing the right thing is just that, Perhaps doing the right thing to compensate the doctor would be to say, "thank you for saving my life, doctor."
    Hmmm, all i can say is that i disagree really. I think perfect morality can be complete selflessness in competition with wanting to do for others. So as a result these things would compete with each other in a hypothetical "economy" of one pat on the back = one hug in return. Or one treating of a wound and the treated would do something in return that is of equal significance. Yes for the Doctor just a thank you would be enough, but that is not enough for the patient, because the patient would want to morally do something in return that would equal it... or they would not accept the treatment because it is unmoral to take from others from which you can't find some equal compensation in return.

    And im sorry if i was fostering the discussion, i meant to defend my question more then defending my viewpoint... if that makes sense. But what i am doing above is discussion/debate of my own opinion on what i think ideal morality is, but i know other people may think it to be different. I think it is worth discussing, because yes you have discovered that the definition of perfect morality affects the answer, but that is exactly what i want. For the differences in opinion on what morality is to affect the answer not our difference in opinion politically/ or any other reason.

  2. #52
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Hmmm, all i can say is that i disagree really. I think perfect morality can be complete selflessness in competition with wanting to do for others. So as a result these things would compete with each other in a hypothetical "economy" of one pat on the back = one hug in return. Or one treating of a wound and the treated would do something in return that is of equal significance. Yes for the Doctor just a thank you would be enough, but that is not enough for the patient, because the patient would want to morally do something in return that would equal it... or they would not accept the treatment because it is unmoral to take from others from which you can't find some equal compensation in return.
    OK. I see your position on this. I disagree with it, completely, as I stated above. Perfect morality would not equate to complete selflessness. I don't see how perfect morality could be proportional. I better understand your argument, though. I just don't agree.

    And im sorry if i was fostering the discussion, i meant to defend my question more then defending my viewpoint... if that makes sense. But what i am doing above is discussion/debate of my own opinion on what i think ideal morality is, but i know other people may think it to be different. I think it is worth discussing, because yes you have discovered that the definition of perfect morality affects the answer, but that is exactly what i want. For the differences in opinion on what morality is to affect the answer not our difference in opinion politically/ or any other reason.
    OK, that makes more sense, except I'm not sure what question you are trying to defend. If it is the question in your OP, the only thing that it looks like you are trying to defend is the position that SOME form of government would be in place in a perfectly moral world. Is that what you are saying?
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  3. #53
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    It's an interesting hypothetical question, but it doesn't have any real answer; perfection, whether it be moral perfection or physical perfection, is an impossible state. No thing which is real can be perfect.

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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    It's an interesting hypothetical question, but it doesn't have any real answer; perfection, whether it be moral perfection or physical perfection, is an impossible state. No thing which is real can be perfect.
    One could make the argument everything that's physically real is perfect, and it is simply human perception that makes it imperfect. Energy is perfect, matter is perfect, it is when it's arranged in a manner that doesn't suit our purpose that it's imperfect.
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    If people had ideal morality, what would be the best form of government? Suggesting what should we ideally strive for as our society evoles morally. and why?

    1) A libertarian state- complete liberty

    2) Communism- complete equality and unison of goals

    3) A Perfect Representative Democracy

    4) Other- explain
    None....its self evident that "IF" is the most perfect state that a human will ever attain, why would anyone need any Government whatsoever, if there was no crime, no need for national defense, no hunger, etc. and everyone was equal? Its a communist utopia type dream that has failed when ever such is attempted to be applied by Force of Government, as Free Will cannot be subject to any force, especially if someone is willing to die (freedom) in a demonstration thereof. Humans are not by birthright born PERFECT...but they are born with an innate craving for FREEDOM.
    Last edited by Walter; 02-24-11 at 03:44 AM.

  6. #56
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    One could make the argument everything that's physically real is perfect, and it is simply human perception that makes it imperfect. Energy is perfect, matter is perfect, it is when it's arranged in a manner that doesn't suit our purpose that it's imperfect.
    One could make that argument, but then one would be arguing that human beings are themselves already perfect and that their political structures are likewise perfect. In that event, the best political system for any society is the one that it has right now, even when it is in the midst of transition from one state to another; the actions of any agent involved would be exactly as they should be and the results would always be optimal.

    I would actually be inclined to make that argument. The world unfolds the way it is intended to, and our attitude toward the world and our efforts to affect its development are themselves a part of that process. The wheel continues to turn regardless.

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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    If people had ideal morality, what would be the best form of government? Suggesting what should we ideally strive for as our society evoles morally. and why?

    1) A libertarian state- complete liberty

    2) Communism- complete equality and unison of goals

    3) A Perfect Representative Democracy

    4) Other- explain
    If people were perfect then there would be no need for a government.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I think one could argue that you would still need government to have an organized way to help the poor and disabled.
    If people are perfect then there would already be private citizens and groups handling those things.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #59
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I think one could argue that you would still need government to have an organized way to help the poor and disabled.
    But if people were perfect, there wouldn't be any poor or disabled.
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  10. #60
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    Re: If people were perfect, what would be the best form of government?

    If people were perfect, or in the words of Madison "angels," we would need NO government.

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