Do you support ending all Public Sector Unions?

The time is long past due to remove the Public Masters and reinstate the Public Servants......to put Taxpayer Rights, Property Rights, Employer Rights, and Voter Rights back on an equal playing field with the almighty "Worker's rights"......and to throw our Bankrupt cities, states, and country a lifeline to solvency rather than the wellstone of Union debt. The time has come to put Public Sector Unions on the endangered species list.

Im not saying all Public Sector Unions are a detriment.......its just how collective bargaining ultimately ends. Im not saying there havent been instances when Unions have helped our society and economy........just not in the last 3 or 4 decades. Im not saying Union slobs are all to blame.....who wouldnt vote themselves a bloated salary, gold plated health care, diamond inlayed pension, a pay raise every two years, a lifetime exemption for accountability and responsibility, and have someone else pay for it all.......if you could.

What I am saying.....is Im a realist. And in reality, rather than Union Imaginationland, the majority of people who pay for the bloated salaries, gold plated health care, and diamond inlayed pensions of these public sector union slobs, have a smaller salary and fewer benefits, if any benefits at all. Removing Public Sector Unions entirely from The Divided Socialist States of ObamAmerica isnt an attack on the poor or middle class, its a ****ing tax break for the poor and middle class......its the weight of millions of parasites lifted from the backs of the poor and middle class. For every poor and middle class private sector worker......its a federal tax cut, a property tax cut, a state income tax cut, a city income tax cut, a sales tax cut. Its a pay raise for for 4 out of every 5 American workers.....God Bless America.

Regardless of how noble or heroic a role......Public Sector Unions and their members produce NOTHING....but bureaucracy and debt. The majority of Public Sector Union Jobs could be handled by the Private market for lower costs with better results. And while American Workers should have the right to Organize.....it shouldnt be on the back of the American Taxpayer. A long overdue welcome to all Public Sector Unions......back to Freedom, the Free Market, and Reality. By bill or by bankruptcy.......the days of Public Sector Unions are numbered.........and the end cant come soon enough.
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"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare,
and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare,
they may take the care of religion into their own hands;
they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish
and pay them out of their public treasury;
they may take into their own hands the education of children,
establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union;
they may assume the provision of the poor;
they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads;
in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation
down to the most minute object of police,
would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power
of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for,
it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature
of the limited Government established by the people of America."

----James Madison--Father of the Constitution--Hater of Liberals--Great American.
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Yes, they will drive us to bankruptcy eventually. Not just them, of course. We also can thank warmongering (including the war on drugs) and other social programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Like ANYTHING ELSE.

Unions can be a negative AND a positive.

There are some Unions that do **** I don't agree with, but would I be in favour of all public sector unions being abolished? I don't think so.

At the end of the day I'm not going to try and create some grand argument here, my knowledge on this subject is somewhat limited and I'm not going to wing it, but from what I do know, all unions have their place, but if I were to use teachers unions as an example, in some cases with them, I'd like to see their toe nails clipped a little bit, they go too far with some things, especially when it comes to incompetant teachers, throw em out the door IMO.

But to scrap them all together? Nope. Unions have their place, to find a balance is the difficult part and I'm not sure where that balance lies.

Jetboogieman said:

Like ANYTHING ELSE.

Unions can be a negative AND a positive.

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.....could you name one of these "positives"?

There are some Unions that do **** I don't agree with, but would I be in favour of all public sector unions being abolished? I don't think so.

At the end of the day I'm not going to try and create some grand argument here, my knowledge on this subject is somewhat limited and I'm not going to wing it, but from what I do know, all unions have their place, but if I were to use teachers unions as an example, in some cases with them, I'd like to see their toe nails clipped a little bit, they go too far with some things, especially when it comes to incompetant teachers, throw em out the door IMO.

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Well thats not positive.......but I feel your pain.

Out of over 100,000 public school teachers in Michigan, only nine were fired last year | Mark Hemingway | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner

.......we passed negotiation about 30 years ago........its time to put an end to The Mob.

But to scrap them all together? Nope. Unions have their place, to find a balance is the difficult part and I'm not sure where that balance lies.

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Two questions about Unions and their place........

Can you name one Public Sector Union Job.......that you feel the private market couldnt handle.?.........with lower costs and better results.

Can you give one Union example........of outstanding results.......for the King's ransom we pay them?
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There is one fundamental difference between the private sector and the public. The public sector does not have the same check and balance that the private sector has, meaning the private sector cannot continue to pay inflated wages while continuing to increase debt year after year. No business can remain in the red decade after decade and stay afloat. They either make adjustments or go under. The public sector on the other hand can continue to borrow money to cover expenditures. This allows Unions to continuously raise demands beyond a reasonable level. Consider what we are seeing right now. I believe the only reason we are finally seeing some sort of resistance to the unions is because of political opposition. If Dems had remained in power in those particular states things would have continues down the same old destructive path.

Note to self: Firefighters, teachers and city workers produce NOTHING!

KeeKee said:

Note to self: Firefighters, teachers and city workers produce NOTHING!

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Add to that: police officers, garbagemen, mailmen.

These people produce nadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I say we ban those guys too and see how long any of them stick around.

KeeKee said:

Note to self: Firefighters, teachers and city workers produce NOTHING!

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Note to self: A Service Based Country is a state of Bankruptcy........
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Hatuey said:

Add to that: police officers, garbagemen, mailmen.

These people produce nadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I say we ban those guys too and see how long any of them stick around.

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Where exactly do you think they are going to go?............Canada?

As we all know.....Policing, Sanitation, and Delivery never existed before Unions were created.....
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Badmutha said:

Where exactly do you think they are going to go?............Canada?

As we all know.....Policing, Sanitation, and Delivery never existed before Unions were created.....
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Actually they really didn't with the exception of mail delivery and even that was sub par. Sanitation was only a concern for people living in major American cities for most of the 19th century. Nobody wanted to do it because there was no benefit to picking up other people's crap. The majority of Americans in major cities lived in complete squalor prior to the creation of unions and sanitation services. Policing? Haha. Don't make me laugh. US cities were as bad as the wild west before the creation of unions unions. Not sure about the rural landscape but I doubt it was much better. Seriously, the biggest things the US handled in the 19th century was the post office and the military. In terms of hygiene, this country was a horrible place to live during the early years of the 20th century. The creation of unions provided a big change to that. They created an incentive for people to do the jobs that were dangerous, disgusting and base.

Public unions should not be permitted to strike; any salary raise negotiated beyond the % of increase used for Social Security recipients should require a public vote--I believe that would tie it to the CPI; healthcare and retirement plans should, by rule of law, have to compare with those of private enterprise.

If these limitations were in place, I would have no problem with public unions.

Look, if negotiations between unions and managers of private companies come to a boil, the union strikes and either management folds or the company goes bankrupt.

Now look at the public sector... cities, counties, states. If negotiations between unions and the public sector come to a boil, management has NO tools to deal with it. None. If a city or state declares bankruptcy, what happens to the people who lives there? Construction comes to a halt, because there are no inspectors, no building permits being issued, no water delivery, no fire protection, no police protection. So when the money isn't there to pay union wages and perks, what happens? Has anyone seriously thought about what would happen if, say, the state of California suddenly declared bankruptcy, and its assets were seized by the court? Everything screeches to a complete halt... and those union jobs? They're gone. Those union paychecks? They're gone too. Highway maintenance? Uh-uh. Snowplows in the mountains? Sorry, fend for yourselves until spring. Water delivery from the north part of the state to the south? Sayonara. State workers handle... used to handle that. Wildfires, floods, natural disasters... you're on your own, people. Schools? Close 'em down, people. No state, no teachers, no money. 20 million peeps will have to homeschool their kids. The dominoes continue to fall as the list goes on. Is this the worst-case scenario? Absolutely. But the worst-case scenario is not an impossible scenario.

I used to work for a municipality. People always complain about civil servents until suddenly they don't have access to all the services they provide, services that residents severely need. In order for public entities to remain solvent, they have to have ways to cut expenses to match flexible revenues. Huge, multi-year union contracts prevent entities from doing that. Unlike the federal government, public entities are required by law to balance their budgets. They cannot by law run a "dificit."

A private corporation goes bankrupt, a limited number of people are out of work. A state goes bankrupt, millions upon millions of people are going to be drastically and dangerously affected, and unemployment will probably soar to 30% or more. When you count all the jobs in the public service sector and jobs that are funded by the public service sector, half the state could eventually be out of work. That is why public entities cannot be allowed to go bankrupt, and why public sector unions should be abolished.

Hatuey said:

Actually they really didn't with the exception of mail delivery and even that was sub par. Sanitation was only a concern for people living in major American cities for most of the 19th century. Nobody wanted to do it because there was no benefit to picking up other people's crap. The majority of Americans in major cities lived in complete squalor prior to the creation of unions and sanitation services.

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Yes of course....without unions we would all be ****ing in buckets like George Obama.

Policing? Haha. Don't make me laugh. US cities were as bad as the wild west before the creation of unions unions. Not sure about the rural landscape but I doubt it was much better.

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Union labor prevents crime..........

The Top 10 Most Dangerous Cities of 2010

1. St. Louis--Democrat Mayor for the last 61 years
2. Camden, NJ--Democrat Mayor for the last 24 years
3. Detroit--Democrat Mayor for the last 48 years
4. Flint, Mich.--Democrat Mayor for the last 35 years
5. Oakland--Democrat Mayor for the last 43 years
6. Richmond, Calif.--Democrat Mayor for the last 10 years
7. Cleveland, Ohio--Democrat Mayor for the last 22 years
8. Compton, California--no info available--probably libs
9. Gary, Ind.--Democrat Mayor the last 16 years
10. Birmingham, Ala.--Democrat Mayor for the last 35 years

Seriously, the biggest things the US handled in the 19th century was the post office and the military. In terms of hygiene, this country was a horrible place to live during the early years of the 20th century. The creation of unions provided a big change to that. They created an incentive for people to do the jobs that were dangerous, disgusting and base.

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The aquirement of wealth is the incentive.......not union dues.

.....to believe nobody would step up to fill the jobs vacated by Public Sector Union Slobs tomorrow......is to reside in Imaginationland today.
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My two bits to this thread would be that we should use the term government in place of public since that is a more accurate term. The question would then be, "Do you support ending all Government Sector Unions?", and I would answer yes with the provision that some of the workers may belong to professional organizations which would focus on the embetterment on resources to do the job. And with respect to wages would be done on merit based under policies by that department or inacted into law by that State Legislature.

Badmutha said:

Yes of course....without unions we would all be ****ing in buckets like George Obama.

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You can't really argue with the facts. No unions? America was a pretty ****ty place to work in. Unions? America becomes the most prosperous political and economic entity in the history of the world.

Union labor prevents crime..........

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That's not what I said. Learn what a strawman is.

The aquirement of wealth is the incentive.......not union dues.

.....to believe nobody would step up to fill the jobs vacated by Public Sector Union Slobs tomorrow......is to reside in Imaginationland today.
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Nobody really would. Countries with strong unions systems are almost universally free and democratic societies with a wide variety of classes. Countries who oppose the creation of unions are almost universally oppressive regimes with little democratic progress and mass poverty. Africa is a good example of what anti-union policies do for the working classes.

I believe unions have their place, even in the public sector. I support placing restrictions on them but not eliminating them. Unions are an important part of ensuring fair treatment for workers. I've seen how companies will screw their workforce without them.

Public sector I'm iffy on. I voted no, but I don't think people who are considered critical (ie. firemen, police, etc.) should be allowed to strike when its detrimental to society.

Private sector, any non-govt. supported unions are completely ok.

Shadow Serious said:

My two bits to this thread would be that we should use the term government in place of public since that is a more accurate term.

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I will get it changed....but were going to need a Union sign off.....

......I think Taxpayer-Funded Unions might help pull Joe Public's head from his rectum.....but Im down with Government Unions.....as long as we get rid of them.

The question would then be, "Do you support ending all Government Sector Unions?", and I would answer yes with the provision that some of the workers may belong to professional organizations which would focus on the embetterment on resources to do the job. And with respect to wages would be done on merit based under policies by that department or inacted into law by that State Legislature.

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If you manage to get the camel out of the tent......dont let him stick his nose back in.....
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DiAnna said:

Look, if negotiations between unions and managers of private companies come to a boil, the union strikes and either management folds or the company goes bankrupt.

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Indeed....all Union roads lead to Bankruptcy, USA.

Now look at the public sector... cities, counties, states. If negotiations between unions and the public sector come to a boil, management has NO tools to deal with it. None. If a city or state declares bankruptcy, what happens to the people who lives there?

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....well they dont lay down and die 5 seconds later.

The Democrat voters will move to the next host organism........but life goes on for those that remain.......the people do without the government services they could never do without.

Construction comes to a halt, because there are no inspectors, no building permits being issued,

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The inspector doesnt build the house.....neither does the government permission slip. The state is bankrupt.....not the contractor and the potential homeowner.

no water delivery,

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Do you want water and have money? Its worked in the free market the last billion times it was tried......

no fire protection, no police protection.

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Protection?........is there a Firefighter and a Police officer outside your door at the moment protecting you?.......

So when the money isn't there to pay union wages and perks, what happens? Has anyone seriously thought about what would happen if, say, the state of California suddenly declared bankruptcy, and its assets were seized by the court? Everything screeches to a complete halt... and those union jobs? They're gone. Those union paychecks? They're gone too. Highway maintenance? Uh-uh. Snowplows in the mountains? Sorry, fend for yourselves until spring. Water delivery from the north part of the state to the south? Sayonara. State workers handle... used to handle that. Wildfires, floods, natural disasters... you're on your own, people. Schools? Close 'em down, people. No state, no teachers, no money. 20 million peeps will have to homeschool their kids. The dominoes continue to fall as the list goes on. Is this the worst-case scenario? Absolutely. But the worst-case scenario is not an impossible scenario.

I used to work for a municipality. People always complain about civil servents until suddenly they don't have access to all the services they provide, services that residents severely need. In order for public entities to remain solvent, they have to have ways to cut expenses to match flexible revenues. Huge, multi-year union contracts prevent entities from doing that. Unlike the federal government, public entities are required by law to balance their budgets. They cannot by law run a "dificit."

A private corporation goes bankrupt, a limited number of people are out of work. A state goes bankrupt, millions upon millions of people are going to be drastically and dangerously affected, and unemployment will probably soar to 30% or more. When you count all the jobs in the public service sector and jobs that are funded by the public service sector, half the state could eventually be out of work. That is why public entities cannot be allowed to go bankrupt, and why public sector unions should be abolished.

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I agree with most of what you said.....just had to get a few jabs in.
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Let's have a Founding Father match! You get Madison, we'll take Franklin.

We win.

Thanks!

iamitter said:

Public sector I'm iffy on. I voted no, but I don't think people who are considered critical (ie. firemen, police, etc.) should be allowed to strike when its detrimental to society.

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But wouldnt you agree......Without the strike.......the "put the money in the bag or were gonna shut you down" moment.......

........there wouldnt be any bite in the union bark......and no reason for the union.

Even when the Union signs No-Strike contracts......there is a blue flu at the Police Department.......or at the Wisconsin Public schools.

Private sector, any non-govt. supported unions are completely ok.

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Amen......
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whysoserious said:

Let's have a Founding Father match! You get Madison, we'll take Franklin.

We win.

Thanks!

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Franklin would decline......and probably smack the liberal out of you......

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

--Ben Franklin--Conservative--Hater of Liberals--Great American

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Badmutha said:

But wouldnt you agree......Without the strike.......the "put the money in the bag or were gonna shut you down" moment.......

........there wouldnt be any bite in the union bark......and no reason for the union.

Even when the Union signs No-Strike contracts......there is a blue flu at the Police Department.......or at the Wisconsin Public schools.



Amen......
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They should have other things to compensate for their agreeing not to go on strike.

I voted yes. Unions force teachers, firemen, police, and so on to pay for things they may not personally believe or support. They can strike whenever and still get paid. We as taxpayers pay their salaries, they do as they please and the kids in WI have apparently suffered. The study of 8th graders show that. Most cant even read on their own level...My 2nd grader is reading at a 6th grade level...what are the teachers doing to earn their pay exactly?
Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can

iamitter said:

They should have other things to compensate for their agreeing not to go on strike.

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Well isnt a bloated salary, gold plated health care, diamond inlayed pensions enough compensation?

.....The Content Union is as real as Bigfoot or the Blue Dog Democrat.
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