View Poll Results: Is Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector a Right or is it a Privilege?

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  • Collective Bargaining, at least in the public sector is a fundamental human right

    13 19.70%
  • Collective Bargaining in the public sector is a privilege.

    41 62.12%
  • Other, the issue is more complex than that (Explain)

    12 18.18%
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Thread: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Again, easier said that done. I agree with you in principle, but the reality is that elected politicians represent a wide variety of constituents who all want different things. And it's not like we have a lot of competent negotiators to choose from in the first place. I didn't vote for George Bush or the Iraq War, and on the face of it, it really wasn't that great of an investment. Should I really still be held responsible for the selection of an incompetent head of state?
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    yep

    it is true that we DESERVE the politicians we elect
    I'm just saying, realistically speaking, the ideal of choosing competent representatives and negotiators is just that, an ideal that is usually not achievable.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Her statement was true in a literal sense. However on a philosophical level the two situations really aren't comparable. In the first situation the money is forcibly taken, while in the second instance the money is willingly given. If we're debating the merits of the existence of private sector unions vs. those in the public sector then this is a pretty important distinction.
    This isn't totally true either. Once the shares are bought, shareholders are stuck with the company, when their interest is negatively affected, they have no recourse except to sell their shares at a loss. This agent-principal problem is widely studied in economics. It is not an exclusively public sector problem.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 02-22-11 at 12:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  4. #44
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    This isn't totally true either. Once the shares are bought, shareholders are stuck with the company, when their interest is negatively affected, they have no recourse except to sell their shares at a loss. This agent-principal problem is widely studied in economics. It is not an exclusively public sector problem.
    I agree, but nevertheless it's easier to cash in your money and sell the stock than it is to vote for competent politicians or vote with your feet. In the long run, unions will always be more powerful than the people for the simple reason that unions are organized and usually of one mind, while voters, at large, are not. In the public sector, unions will always win because the have more bargaining power than the other side in the long run. Even if their wages and benefits have risen to a level that's more than fair, there isn't much stopping them from going further unless it's something pretty catastrophic like a budget crisis.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 02-22-11 at 01:07 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that managers negotiate with other people's money.
    With other willing people's money.

    If you don't like how your tax money is spent, you can hire new managers/politicians. If that is not enough, you can move to another state or country. Everytime you pay tax, you understand the risk that your money will be squandered by politicians. Conservatives especially seem to complain of this non-stop. If you don't want to pay tax, you can again vote with your feet.
    No, you can't do that. With a personal investment, you don't have to rely on the majority of investors. If you don't like how things are run, you can sell your shares and go elsewhere. That's not the case with the government. You can't simply refuse to give them your money, they're going to take it regardless. You can't just fire the management either, you have to go with the majority. If they're too clueless to fire incompetent management, you're stuck and you're still forced to pay no matter how much you hate what's going on. The idea that you can move elsewhere is likewise ridiculous, no matter where you go, some government is going to tax you. There is no relief.
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    I believe collective bargaining is an aspect of the right to assemble in the first amendment.

    Also, there is little correlation between public sector unionization and state budget deficit, so the politician giving away the store argument does not sway me much.


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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I believe collective bargaining is an aspect of the right to assemble in the first amendment.

    Also, there is little correlation between public sector unionization and state budget deficit, so the politician giving away the store argument does not sway me much.

    It is definitely true that, to some degree, public sector unions are being scapegoated by the governor for Wisconsin's budget shortfalls.

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    It is definitely true that, to some degree, public sector unions are being scapegoated by the governor for Wisconsin's budget shortfalls.
    I believe in this case, it is an easy excuse for them to do what they want to ideological as opposed to financial reasons.

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Those who say that Wisconsin is trying to cure its budget deficit on the backs of unions are misguided. That's nothing more than a talking point. Everything needs scrutiny. Everyone is going to have to sacrifice. No more golden compensation programs for the public sector is a much-needed beginning.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I believe in this case, it is an easy excuse for them to do what they want to ideological as opposed to financial reasons.
    Definitely agree here. However my OP was more of a philosophical entertainment of the merits of public sector unionization, and whether or not they're really necessary. Just like people who join the military have to give up some of the first amendment rights, people who join the public sector as civil servants should potentially give up some of their first amendment rights because of their unique situation.

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