View Poll Results: Is Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector a Right or is it a Privilege?

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  • Collective Bargaining, at least in the public sector is a fundamental human right

    13 19.70%
  • Collective Bargaining in the public sector is a privilege.

    41 62.12%
  • Other, the issue is more complex than that (Explain)

    12 18.18%
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Thread: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    One is where shareholders voluntarily invest their own money knowing the inherent risk, while the other is not.
    you are responding to something other than which was stated:
    Your problem with public sector negotiation is "the people negotiating with them are spending Other People's Money".

    This situation is also true of public companies, which is part of the private sector.
    this comparison is more than valid

    in the instance of public sector unions*, management is spending other peoples' money when it obligates taxpayer dollars as compensation for the government labor performed

    in the instance of private companies, management spends other people's money when it obligates shareholder dollars as compensation for the private sector labor performed
    the only instance where this would not be the case was where there is but a sole proprietor of a company and he is the one who negotiates the contract with labor. i defy you to show a single instance where this has transpired


    * in the federal sector, wages are established by the congress and are non-negotiable with the union (impact and implementation of the wage rules not withstanding)
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  2. #32
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that managers negotiate with other people's money.

    If you don't like how your tax money is spent, you can hire new managers/politicians. If that is not enough, you can move to another state or country. Everytime you pay tax, you understand the risk that your money will be squandered by politicians. Conservatives especially seem to complain of this non-stop. If you don't want to pay tax, you can again vote with your feet.
    I agree with this in principle, but in reality it's easier said than done.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Spot on????????? The public sector is completely different than a public company. What are you thinking? Spot on. Right. What IS his point? That they both use money? One is taxpayer money. The other is investor money. Come onnnnn....pick another door.
    you said it yourself

    one spends the shareholder dollars and the other obligates the taxpayer dollars

    i thank you for making my own argument against you
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  4. #34
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    If you don't like how your tax money is spent, you can hire new managers/politicians. If that is not enough, you can move to another state or country. Everytime you pay tax, you understand the risk that your money will be squandered by politicians. Conservatives especially seem to complain of this non-stop. If you don't want to pay tax, you can again vote with your feet.
    That's EGAZKLY what the people of Wisconsin did.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  5. #35
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    you are responding to something other than which was stated:
    Your problem with public sector negotiation is "the people negotiating with them are spending Other People's Money".

    This situation is also true of public companies, which is part of the private sector.
    Her statement was true in a literal sense. However on a philosophical level the two situations really aren't comparable. In the first situation the money is forcibly taken, while in the second instance the money is willingly given. If we're debating the merits of the existence of private sector unions vs. those in the public sector then this is a pretty important distinction.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 02-22-11 at 12:32 PM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    you said it yourself

    one spends the shareholder dollars and the other obligates the taxpayer dollars

    i thank you for making my own argument against you
    I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You've taken MY argument and made it your own.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  7. #37
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Her statement was true in a literal sense. However on a philosophical level the two situations really aren't comparable. In the first situation the money is forcibly taken, while in the second instance the money is willingly given. If we're debating the merits of the existence of private sector unions vs. those in the public sector than this is a pretty important distinction.
    nope
    in both instances, the dollars are willingly given
    by the designated representatives to the contract negotiations
    in the instance of the private sector company and the public sector taxpayer, they are represented in negotiations
    the contract is hammered out and executed by both parties, each having received authority to bargain on behalf of their representative constituency

    the problem develops when one of the parties sends to the negotiation table representatives who are not up to the task

    often, that is management ... whether it is corporate management or government management ... it is the sending of the incompetents to engage in contract negotiations that produces these negative outcomes

    so, rather than eliminating the unions, instead select better representatives to sit at the negotiating table
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  8. #38
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    nope
    in both instances, the dollars are willingly given
    by the designated representatives to the contract negotiations
    in the instance of the private sector company and the public sector taxpayer, they are represented in negotiations
    the contract is hammered out and executed by both parties, each having received authority to bargain on behalf of their representative constituency

    the problem develops when one of the parties sends to the negotiation table representatives who are not up to the task

    often, that is management ... whether it is corporate management or government management ... it is the sending of the incompetents to engage in contract negotiations that produces these negative outcomes

    so, rather than eliminating the unions, instead select better representatives to sit at the negotiating table
    I don't disagree with this. What are the names of the people negotiating these golden compensation/benefits packages? They seem to remain nameless.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  9. #39
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't disagree with this. What are the names of the people negotiating these golden compensation/benefits packages? They seem to remain nameless.
    those names will be found at the bottom of each contract they have entered into
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  10. #40
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    nope
    in both instances, the dollars are willingly given
    by the designated representatives to the contract negotiations
    in the instance of the private sector company and the public sector taxpayer, they are represented in negotiations
    the contract is hammered out and executed by both parties, each having received authority to bargain on behalf of their representative constituency

    the problem develops when one of the parties sends to the negotiation table representatives who are not up to the task

    often, that is management ... whether it is corporate management or government management ... it is the sending of the incompetents to engage in contract negotiations that produces these negative outcomes

    so, rather than eliminating the unions, instead select better representatives to sit at the negotiating table
    Again, easier said that done. I agree with you in principle, but the reality is that elected politicians represent a wide variety of constituents who all want different things. And it's not like we have a lot of competent negotiators to choose from in the first place. I didn't vote for George Bush or the Iraq War, and on the face of it, it really wasn't that great of an investment. Should I really still be held responsible for the selection of an incompetent head of state?

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