View Poll Results: Is Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector a Right or is it a Privilege?

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  • Collective Bargaining, at least in the public sector is a fundamental human right

    13 19.70%
  • Collective Bargaining in the public sector is a privilege.

    41 62.12%
  • Other, the issue is more complex than that (Explain)

    12 18.18%
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Thread: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I think unions in general have outlived their usefulness. Unions as an idea much like communism seems pretty good at face value. The problem is the human corruption and favoritism infiltrate every aspect. This is why organized crime was able to get involved and stay involved for so long. It is power and money, and thus corruptible.

    Our labor laws are supposed to protect laborers. Each person should be able to negotiate a favorable wage on their own, or get a different job. Hard in these times, but it can be done.
    Agreed. When unions started, we didn't have the labor protections in place that we have now and unions began as a means of the workers of a particular job site to band together for mutual protection. Today, when you have state or national unions that have no real pressing interest in a particular job site's survival, they only care about making money from the union members, then what's the point? Unions used to have to work with the employers for their mutual benefit. Today, unions couldn't care less if they drive individual employers out of business, they have thousands of other employers still to grind under their heel.

    We don't need unions today, the fundamental protections that they provide already exist in law.
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    I think people should be free to assemble in any form they like, and if that includes a unit of workers, regardless of sector, for the purpose of improving their wages then so be it. Though there should not be laws to protect them. However, businesses should not be able to ban them either.

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It's one thing for unions to be negotiating with their private companies -- their money, their rules. It's quite another for the public sector -- the people negotiating with them are spending Other People's Money....to curry favor and keep themselves in office.
    The private sector includes public companies in which the managers negotiate in lieu of the shareholders/owners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    The private sector includes public companies in which the managers negotiate in lieu of the shareholders/owners.
    I don't even know what that means, Nonpareil. Say it another way?

    The private sector, by definition, does not pay their employees with public money. If you're talking about "a public company" as in the definition of investing and the stockmarket, well, that's just not the same thing. But I'm sure you know that...
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't even know what that means, Nonpareil. Say it another way?

    The private sector, by definition, does not pay their employees with public money. If you're talking about "a public company" as in the definition of investing and the stockmarket, well, that's just not the same thing. But I'm sure you know that...
    Unless we're talking contractors, but I'm also curious as to what she's referring to.

  6. #16
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    why do these threads consistently ignore those who entered into the contracts with government employees

    they are the managers. not one contract is executed where a manager was not sitting across the table from the union

    if the contract is found to have been untenable, why blame the worker instead of looking at the manager who signed off on something which should have been found inappropriate

    what we really find is a massive amount of management incompetence at work. these are the political hires. they are on the job, not because they have considerable management expertise but because they have good political connections

    those are the folks sitting across the table from the union ... those are the people who sign off on the contracts which are later found to be excessive

    a personal example. on the last day of the dicknbush regime, the outgoing political appointees signed off on a $7.6 million settlement agreement with our union. the claim was weak, at best. we had almost no valid data to support the claim for uncompensated overtime. hell, we have a provision which allows us to receive as compensation other time off (credit hours) for overtime voluntarily worked. yet that voluntary overtime constituted much of what we had to buttress our case. what we really wanted was an end of uncompensated INvoluntary overtime. if that had been approved by management, then the agency would have saved $7.6 million
    instead, the political hacks of the prior regime wanted to place the incoming political hacks in a fiscal hole, by making them operate with $7.6 million less than would have otherwise been available for operations

    my point is that unionization of government or the labor of privately held companies is not, of itself, a bad thing. but when the principals are incompetent and/or misdirected, bad contract outcomes are going to emerge
    labor has to make sure it participates in union governance, otherwise those who would exploit their union position for personal benefit will (and do) prevail. this is too often the case
    management must make sure that its representatives understand labor-management issues and the labor-management processes and therefor should not assign incompetents to fulfill that representative role. finding the weakest management staff assigned to this role is too often the case
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I've never been particularly passionate about labor, and worker's rights (I know, weird for a liberal, right?), but what's currently going on in Wisconsin caused me to dig a little deeper into the issue. Given the current dearth of intelligent polls on meaningful issues, I thought I'd use this issue to make my own first original thread.

    On one hand, I believe that certain segments of the public sector are underpaid, while others are overpaid compared to their private sector counterparts. However, it also can't be denied that collective bargaining in the public sector has placed a certain burden on the taxpayers in the state. Public sector workers differ from those in the private sector in that they serve at the pleasure of the people, not some tyrannical or dictatorial management. The taxpayers of the state are essentially paying the workers and should have a say in issues such as pay and benefits. In addition, government workers are already free to form workers' associations and lobby for their own causes.

    I personally believe that collective bargaining in the public sector should be a privilege, rather than a fundamental human right.
    Public sector workers is not different from the private sectors, they do not "serve at the pleasure of the people", they work for wages. Managers in the government sectors can be "tyrannical or dictatorial" too.

    The problem is not collective bargaining, it's the politicians. There are private sector unions that give their supports to politicians for favourable treatments. There are lobbyists who promise contribution to politicians for favourable legislations. It's the evil that comes with representative democracy. Targeting public sector employee is myopic and unfair.

    The issue is not complex, but I don't believe in "fundamental human rights" either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    I voted other. Because of everything that's going on in several states, I now feel the public sector shouldn't be allowed to unionize at all. Tax payers are the one's who pay their wages and benefits. They are the ones who should have a say in what those are through the people they elect. In Wisconsin, Ohio, New Jersey, the people elected Walker, Kasich, and Christie. Civil Service Protection laws, should be strong in every state so that there in no need for a union. Wisconsin has a strong one and I hope the Union there does get busted up.
    They've outlived their usefullness, if they ever were useful in the public sector.
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  9. #19
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't even know what that means, Nonpareil. Say it another way?

    The private sector, by definition, does not pay their employees with public money. If you're talking about "a public company" as in the definition of investing and the stockmarket, well, that's just not the same thing. But I'm sure you know that...

    Your problem with public sector negotiation is "the people negotiating with them are spending Other People's Money".

    This situation is also true of public companies, which is part of the private sector.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

  10. #20
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    so, not rocket science, huh?
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