View Poll Results: Is Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector a Right or is it a Privilege?

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  • Collective Bargaining, at least in the public sector is a fundamental human right

    13 19.70%
  • Collective Bargaining in the public sector is a privilege.

    41 62.12%
  • Other, the issue is more complex than that (Explain)

    12 18.18%
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Thread: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

  1. #171
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    [QUOTE=Kandahar;1059305016]
    There are a certain number of positions for qualified teachers available; there are a certain number of qualified teachers to fill them. Each school wants to fill the position for the lowest price (salary) possible, while each teacher wants to find a position at the highest price (salary) possible. The price would naturally reach an equilibrium. In this regard, the labor market is not much different than a widget market. But when you introduce a monopoly on the labor supply (or the widget supply) which drives the prices artificially higher, the public suffers. This is why monopolies on widgets are generally illegal. Yet public teachers' unions monopolize the labor supply, and the public is the one that suffers.

    As to there being other factors besides overpaying/underpaying teachers that could lead to a disparity in supply and demand: Yes, but they're all ultimately tied to the salary. Jobs in crappy conditions command a premium salary, for example...while jobs in extremely secure/cushy conditions generally receive a lower salary.
    I will think on this awhile, and I appriecaite you giving me something to think about, but at my core, I don't believe this to be true, at least not to the level you suggest. Teachers, despite unions, are not paid the same from place to place, nr are the conditins the same. There are places you can't pay a teacher enough to teach at.



    Depending on how exactly the businesses are grouping together, this may or may not be illegal too. And I agree that labor (or business) groups that want to lobby the government should be legal...but it should be just that: Lobbying. Not monopolizing the labor force to cripple the operations of the government, which the public paid for. If individual workers want to join a special interest group, of their own volition, whose mission is to advocate for policies that increase the median wage in the United States, they should absolutely have that right.
    I don't see labor as a monopoly. I think they are doing exactly what you suggest they should be able to do.

    The experience of the past 50 years shows that this just isn't true. Governments at both the state and the federal level have almost constantly run deficits.
    Yes, but the reasons for that are not that they don't care or that they have no motivation to do differently. We can even point to some business in the private sector, despite the motives you attribute to them that would stop it, who run deficits.

    The problem with this is that a government employer is not a corporation. I saw this stated quite well in an op-ed piece a couple days ago: Private unions were created to guard against the greed of the corporations. Public unions were created to guard against the greed of...the public?

    The government simply does not have enough money to be wasting it on stuff like this. Public employees are not dependents of the American people who need charity; they are the people whom we hire to perform the services we deem important. We have public services that the American people need, and we have a limited amount of cash to pay for them. Every dollar spent overpaying a public union employee is one less dollar that can be spent on the public service itself.
    The government can take just as much advantage of a worker as a corporation can. And while the public does want services as cheaply as possible, and has a right to fight for that, it is not accuarte to assume they cannot underpay, or abuse those who work for them. In fact, I would argue they do so often. Many serivces are running understaffed, and are not getting rich. While a few did well, very well, most don't fit that criteria.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #172
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is a right in so much as it is the right of the individual to decide how he or she wants to negotiate her wage. If this means individually or collectively matters not. Banning or denying collective bargaining is a direct attack on personal freedoms.
    Explain HOW the governor is banning or denying collective bargaining.

  3. #173
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Explain HOW the governor is banning or denying collective bargaining.
    it's in the bill he wants to get passed. no negotiations with unions on anything but pay raises, and then not even really raises. they can't exceed inflation.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  4. #174
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    it's in the bill he wants to get passed. no negotiations with unions on anything but pay raises, and then not even really raises. they can't exceed inflation.
    But they still have the right to petition the government (their employer) just as everyone has a right to petition the government.

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    But they still have the right to petition the government (their employer) just as everyone has a right to petition the government.
    what obligation does the government have to respond to the proffered petition?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #176
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    But they still have the right to petition the government (their employer) just as everyone has a right to petition the government.
    My friends who devoutly defend the Second Amendment have taught me that when you restrict a right to the point where you cannot honestly exercise it as you need to exercise it in the normal time honored fashion, then indeed your right has been stripped from you.
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  7. #177
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    what obligation does the government have to respond to the proffered petition?
    Maybe I'm missing something here. Do the supporters of union actually think they're entitled to their own jobs? That they somehow OWN their job? Let me remind all of you. You don't own your jobs unless your investment paid for its ownership. Labor, by and of itself, is not payment enough to give you clear ownership of your job. Your employer can fire you for whatever reason and by golly, has the right to. Creating insolvency in ANY work place will ultimately result in far less productivity and incredible stagnation.

    And if you don't want to work 40 hours a week- you think that's so horrible- FINE! Then don't.Work less. Take more vacating time. Just don't force the rest of us into the same predicament that you're in. People in Peru work 12 hour work weeks so I get pretty sick and tired of those on the left whining about 40 hour work weeks. At least in this country, there is CHOICE. The absence of choice is slavery, plain and simple. In France, there was a major controversy in 08 (I believe) regarding work weeks. Employers were asking that everyone take a cut in hours (which ALWAYS will mean a cut in pay), down from 30 to 25 so that the next unemployed guy can get a job. Unemployment often runs high in a society where jobs are nearly insolvent.

  8. #178
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    My friends who devoutly defend the Second Amendment have taught me that when you restrict a right to the point where you cannot honestly exercise it as you need to exercise it in the normal time honored fashion, then indeed your right has been stripped from you.
    It may be that their right to gun ownership is being violated, but not necessarily their right to petition the government. It takes a bureaucratic institution, especially a national one, an incredible amount of time to evaluate and make judgments on any single individual. A FOIA request can take up to 7-10 years for Christ's sake! I speak from experience. In this case, we're discussing the individual's right to speak freely about his pay and benefits to his employer while at the same time he/she retains the right to petition the government is such criminalizing acts occur. The individual can scream and yell and join groups of screaming and yelling people, but in the end, the right of the job lies exclusively with the property owner. This is largely speaking in the private sector. The public sector, on the other hand, is a completely different monster. The public sector sees a third party paying the bill for the employment of the public employees, and because of this, they're much more likely to cozy up with the said employees and create some form of cartel. And unions, by so many measures, are a cartel of their own making. You can't trust big unions to look out for the little guy any more than you can trust big business to look out for the small guy. But in this case, we're talking about government employees determining the pay and benefits of their fellow colleagues, all while accounting to an invincible taxpayer who has no real control over the spending. We have two political classes based on spending more and catering to special interests. And you really think public employee unions are not self-serving interest groups? If so, think again.

  9. #179
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something here. Do the supporters of union actually think they're entitled to their own jobs? That they somehow OWN their job? Let me remind all of you. You don't own your jobs unless your investment paid for its ownership. Labor, by and of itself, is not payment enough to give you clear ownership of your job. Your employer can fire you for whatever reason and by golly, has the right to. Creating insolvency in ANY work place will ultimately result in far less productivity and incredible stagnation.

    And if you don't want to work 40 hours a week- you think that's so horrible- FINE! Then don't.Work less. Take more vacating time. Just don't force the rest of us into the same predicament that you're in. People in Peru work 12 hour work weeks so I get pretty sick and tired of those on the left whining about 40 hour work weeks. At least in this country, there is CHOICE. The absence of choice is slavery, plain and simple. In France, there was a major controversy in 08 (I believe) regarding work weeks. Employers were asking that everyone take a cut in hours (which ALWAYS will mean a cut in pay), down from 30 to 25 so that the next unemployed guy can get a job. Unemployment often runs high in a society where jobs are nearly insolvent.
    where in all that ignorant tripe is the answer to this question?
    what obligation does the government have to respond to the proffered petition?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  10. #180
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    from galt

    It may be that their right to gun ownership is being violated, but not necessarily their right to petition the government.
    Aha! A double standard when it comes to the sacred rights contained in the Bill of Rights. I guess in libertarianville, some rights count more than others.

    You can't trust big unions to look out for the little guy any more than you can trust big business to look out for the small guy.
    My union looked out for me for over three decades and did a damn fine job of it. And I am grateful and thankful.
    Last edited by haymarket; 02-28-11 at 11:19 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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