View Poll Results: Is Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector a Right or is it a Privilege?

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  • Collective Bargaining, at least in the public sector is a fundamental human right

    13 19.70%
  • Collective Bargaining in the public sector is a privilege.

    41 62.12%
  • Other, the issue is more complex than that (Explain)

    12 18.18%
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Thread: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

  1. #131
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    [QUOTE=StillBallin75;1059303496]I don't particularly agree with Barb on most things, but she is correct when she says the Constitution doesn't specifically enumerate the right to collective bargaining. Nevertheless:

    While the United States Constitution's First Amendment identifies the rights to assemble and to petition the government, the text of the First Amendment does not make specific mention of a right to association. Nevertheless, the United States Supreme Court held in NAACP v. Alabama that the freedom of association is an essential part of the Freedom of Speech because, in many cases, people can engage in effective speech only when they join with others.
    - Wikipedia



    But I don't see that as collective bargaining as in a right for a union leader to sit down with a politician and make demands or work out deals for public servants. Too much chance for corruption in my opinion.

    However, maybe if teachers insist on collective bargaining and all the perks that come with being unionized, perhaps the time has come to privatize education.
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  2. #132
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    [QUOTE=Barbbtx;1059303546]
    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I don't particularly agree with Barb on most things, but she is correct when she says the Constitution doesn't specifically enumerate the right to collective bargaining. Nevertheless:

    - Wikipedia



    But I don't see that as collective bargaining as in a right for a union leader to sit down with a politician and make demands or work out deals for public servants. Too much chance for corruption in my opinion.

    However, maybe if teachers insist on collective bargaining and all the perks that come with being unionized, perhaps the time has come to privatize education.
    Right, which is why I think a distinction needs to be made between the public and private sectors.

  3. #133
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Bah. I just spouted off on the other poll with the same basic topic. Bottom line, public corporations are funded by citizens hoping to make a profit. Contract impasse means unions strike and company either folds or goes bankrupt. A limited number of people lose their jobs.


    Public sectors are funded by taxpayers purchasing a service. Contract impasse means... no real options. Salaries and wages are the largest portion of the budget. Public sectors must by law have a balanced budget. If a public sector, say a state, goes bankrupt, hundreds of thousands of state workers and those funded by the state lose their jobs.

    Multi-year union contracts keep public sectors from having the flexibility they need to provide needed services within the constraints of a dwindling revenue stream.

  4. #134
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Read... the... thread... Elija said that he supported a system where employees didn't have CB or ability to make demands. Somebody suggested that systems where employees do not have ability to make collective bargains or makes demands is used in communist systems. In addition communist countries use this system far more often than free societies. Collective bargain is by no means a communist invention. It's not even a capitalist invention. It's existed even as far back as feudalism.
    Doesn't that statement suggest that a system that does NOT have CB is similar to communist systems?
    Texas does not have CB but we are not commies, we are not similar to commies.



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  5. #135
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not sure who says more than it is worth, or by what standard.
    By the standard of supply and demand. If the government is having difficulty recruiting qualified people to fill some position, then they are underpaying them. If there are massive numbers of qualified people applying for some position, then they are overpaying them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    but aren't they still employees, just like a private employee, negotiating a wage for the job, and benefits that make it more desirable to work there.
    They can do that individually. When they join an organization whose sole purpose is to strongarm the government (i.e. the representative of the people) into overpaying them by monopolizing the labor supply, they've crossed a line. Any money spent overpaying teachers could be better spent hiring MORE teachers, or improving education in some other way, or on some other public service. From the public's perspective, the money is essentially wasted. No one benefits from public unions except the public union employees...and they have no reason to expect to be immune to the laws of supply and demand any moreso than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    And merit pay. Think about this for a minute. All students are not equal as all parents aren't. If I can teach a place with excellent parents, and few obsticles for my students, and get merit pay because the job is easier, as oppsoed to more difficult jobs, with a problem population, in which merit pay will be harder, where would I work?

    I know we tend to think about this problem in simplistic terms, assuming platitiudes convey truth, but merit pay can be seen as counter productive, especially if you have areas havng a problem gettiing good teachers.
    That's based entirely on the assumption that merit pay would simply pay teachers for how well their students do without regard to any other variables, like the quality of students. I don't think there are many merit pay advocates who want such a system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    However, the point is what makes this different than the private sector? I see nothing in what you say that shows me a difference.
    I'm not a big fan of private unions either, but there is one crucial difference that makes public unions a lot worse: Private companies are motivated by profit, and have a financial incentive to push back against union demands. Government officials are not motivated by profit, and thus often have no such financial incentive to tell the unions no. Along the same lines, who bears the consequences when private company executives allow unions to walk all over them? The shareholders, who chose to invest in the company and have the ability to fire the offending executives and/or sell their stock. Who bears the consequences when government managers allow unions to walk all over them? The public, who has nowhere else to turn for public services.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-23-11 at 01:00 AM.
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  6. #136
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    TEXAS & N. O. R. CO. v. BROTHERHOOD OF RY. & S. S. CLERKS, 281 U.S. 548 - SCOTUS declares the use of bargaining representatives by multiple employees to be constitutionally protected.


    Collective Bargaining/Exclusive Consultation
    Texas is a “right to work” state. This means by law, employees cannot be forced to join a professional organization as a term of employment. In states such as New York and Michigan that don’t have “right to work” laws, all teachers are forced to become members of the union that represents their district. In some cases, unions have even sued educators who refused membership and won! Collective bargaining agreements and exclusive consultation policies leave the door open for this kind of union tactic.
    How it works
    If Texas law were changed to allow collective bargaining for public school employees (currently it is prohibited), districts would typically hold an election to determine which employee group would be designated to represent all district employees. Only the designated group would be allowed to negotiate with the school board. All other groups and their members would be shut out of the process. In this situation, organizations could coerce educators into becoming members because they would otherwise have no representation to the school board.
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    There is nothing wrong with right to work laws, however, if one chooses to join a union and have collective bargaining, that, I believe, is the right of association.

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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Bah. I just spouted off on the other poll with the same basic topic. Bottom line, public corporations are funded by citizens hoping to make a profit. Contract impasse means unions strike and company either folds or goes bankrupt. A limited number of people lose their jobs.


    Public sectors are funded by taxpayers purchasing a service. Contract impasse means... no real options. Salaries and wages are the largest portion of the budget. Public sectors must by law have a balanced budget. If a public sector, say a state, goes bankrupt, hundreds of thousands of state workers and those funded by the state lose their jobs.

    Multi-year union contracts keep public sectors from having the flexibility they need to provide needed services within the constraints of a dwindling revenue stream.
    The company or government should have the ability to hire scab labour during strikes or lockouts.

    Managers need to sign better contracts if the ones they currently have put their organization at risk. Failure to do so, means they are not doing the job they are generally well paid for
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  9. #139
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    And how does this dispute the point that "lobby[ing] government to pay them more than the job is worth" is not "the only reason that the public unions exist"?

    It doesn't, nor did I say it did...I did however say that Public Sector Unions do not, or should not have the "right" to strike."

    Look, they have the "right" to ask for anything they choose...but if they walk of we have the "right" to replace them.

    It's just that simple.

    Then quote the OP, don't quote me and tell me what "we" have been talking about.

    I already did, it's right there in the 1st paragraph of what he wrote...

    What an idiotic thing to pick upon to try to derail a good thread. There's no rule that says private union cannot be brought up in public union thread as a comparison.

    Perhaps this will help, it its apples to oranges, k?

    Completely different animal.....now....stop being surly.
    Last edited by Amazed; 02-23-11 at 11:04 AM.
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    Re: Is Collective Bargaining in the public sector a Right, or is it a Privilege?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Technically the right to unionize is widely interpreted to already have been covered in the First Amendment.
    Unfortunately, that would also, by necessity, require the right not to be in a union, which simply isn't the case, apparently. You cannot refuse to join a union in a union shop.
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