View Poll Results: Who's worse Bush or Obama?

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  • Bush

    97 42.17%
  • Obama

    133 57.83%
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Thread: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

  1. #51
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I call bs on that. it sounds good but is not supportable with verifiable evidence

    Bush put two brilliant experienced jurists on the USSC

    obama pandered to voting groups and put someone who had no business on the court

    what was his tough reality--losing the lesbian jewish vote if he didn't pick Kagan?
    Whoa, what? The only thing that matters about his appointments is that Bush chose two judges he could depend on to promote his point of view in years to come. Obama did the same.

    Legal scholars are valid Supreme Court selections.

    The "verifiable evidence" is that Iraq did not pose a credible threat to the U.S. and had no plausible connection to 9/11. Compare that with the resources invested into occupying and rebuilding it and the final product and it is pretty indisputable Bush's adventure didn't serve the national interest.

    Other than the Iraq War, every other aspect of both Administrations has been a matter of course.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-24-11 at 01:14 AM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  2. #52
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    You don't understand. He wasn't writing about Legal scholars being valid Supreme Court selections.
    He was writing that Kagen's only credentials were that she satisified the lesbian jewish vote.
    I don't know how he could be more clear than that. Very revealing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Whoa, what? The only thing that matters about his appointments is that Bush chose two judges he could depend on to promote his point of view in years to come. Obama did the same.

    Legal scholars are valid Supreme Court selections.

    The "verifiable evidence" is that Iraq did not pose a credible threat to the U.S. and had no plausible connection to 9/11. Compare that with the resources invested into occupying and rebuilding it and the final product and it is pretty indisputable Bush's adventure didn't serve the national interest.

    Other than the Iraq War, every other aspect of both Administrations has been a matter of course.

  3. #53
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    You were quoting the following:
    What should have happened is to let those big corporations fail and collapse. Yes that would have meant harder times. But I think it would have been better in the long run.

    If we didn't rescue GM then Ford, US Honda, US Toyota, Crysler would have also failed.
    That is because they all use the same suppliers (e.g. a door panel supplier was next door to where my wife worked and a trim vendor around the corner) and they were about to fail as it was. Do you need more details? That might have been all we needed to fall further to depression.
    I think it was necessary for them to fail! It would force people to revamp the system to where it would work more efficiently. There is always a demand for car's so it would definitely bounce back in no time. This is what Capitalism is. Just bailing them makes it so they don't get punished for bad financial decisions. This applies in EVERY case except if a monopoly is thrown into the mix; which i think should be against the law and regulated, which it is.

  4. #54
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Oh good, an anonymous poll pitting a Republican against a Democrat. Nobody on this site would even think to spam that kind of poll.

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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    celticwar17 wrote:
    "There is always a demand for car's so it would definitely bounce back in no time."

    Let me explain a bit about why they don't bounce back in no time.

    In Grand Rapids MI there are many auto industry suppliers.
    There are also many vacant industrial buildings many have been vacant for years.
    Many previously occupied by auto industry suppliers.

    When auto industry suppliers and manufactures are up and running the cost of moving is high.The ROI for a few quarters would be hit. If it stops running then ROI is already toast, so consider moving.

    1st,
    With the start of the recovery you would think that these building would return to use. That is not what happens. Rather new building need to be built, not that the vacant buildings are not up to date etc., but the vacant buildings are tied up in legal limbo and have book values that are high. So a new start up auto supplier or other business is better off going to a 'build to suit'.

    So, with the bankruptsy of an existing supplier a new auto supplier can't take over the old building in any reasonable amount of time.

    2nd,
    Tooling: Often the tooling a vendor uses is owned by the customer. At bankruptsy it is stuck in the wrong location and can't be dispositioned until the legal issues are cleared up. It may be quicker and more cost effective to build new tooling especially if you are going to use it in a new location. There are many complicating issues like this.

    3rd,
    The few workers with valuable expertize move out of state.

    4th,
    It is very much quicker and less costly to expand a running supplier than to restart a bankrupt one. And now most of those are off shore.

    5th,
    If you are going to start a new one you will consider all possible locations. Things like labor costs, labor skill sets, worker rights, taxes, bribes, legal system, etc.

    6th,
    Grand Rapids, or the US, is not the place I'd choose if I had to re-establish capasity quickly I were the CEO
    of Toyota, Honda etc.

    The way the auto business is split up into may pieces, most supported by cash flow,
    when you stop a significant piece of it you can break the whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I think it was necessary for them to fail! It would force people to revamp the system to where it would work more efficiently. There is always a demand for car's so it would definitely bounce back in no time. This is what Capitalism is. Just bailing them makes it so they don't get punished for bad financial decisions. This applies in EVERY case except if a monopoly is thrown into the mix; which i think should be against the law and regulated, which it is.

  6. #56
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Neither, of course.
    Our enemy is our greed,fear, and ignorance, but the wealthy conservatives do not help.
    We do need a better people.

  7. #57
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Another silly poll contaminated by right wing extremists/spammers.
    This now belongs in the basement.

  8. #58
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    You don't understand. He wasn't writing about Legal scholars being valid Supreme Court selections.
    He was writing that Kagen's only credentials were that she satisified the lesbian jewish vote.
    I don't know how he could be more clear than that. Very revealing.
    Too much illiteracy and racism, ignorance, here, this belongs in the sewer.

  9. #59
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    You were quoting the following:
    What should have happened is to let those big corporations fail and collapse. Yes that would have meant harder times. But I think it would have been better in the long run.

    If we didn't rescue GM then Ford, US Honda, US Toyota, Crysler would have also failed.
    That is because they all use the same suppliers (e.g. a door panel supplier was next door to where my wife worked and a trim vendor around the corner) and they were about to fail as it was. Do you need more details? That might have been all we needed to fall further to depression.
    I agree with what you say if we would have let certain corporations fail and colapse it would have meant hard times but in the long run it would have been better for America and it's people.

    Who's to say the ones we bailed out might think they have leverage over America now, and who's to say they won't do the same thing they did before?

    Business like cards is at best a gamble.
    Perhaps it would not hurt to change the cards from time to time.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Who Do You Think Has Done More Damage to the Country, Bush or Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    celticwar17 wrote:
    "There is always a demand for car's so it would definitely bounce back in no time."

    Let me explain a bit about why they don't bounce back in no time.

    In Grand Rapids MI there are many auto industry suppliers.
    There are also many vacant industrial buildings many have been vacant for years.
    Many previously occupied by auto industry suppliers.

    When auto industry suppliers and manufactures are up and running the cost of moving is high.The ROI for a few quarters would be hit. If it stops running then ROI is already toast, so consider moving.

    1st,
    With the start of the recovery you would think that these building would return to use. That is not what happens. Rather new building need to be built, not that the vacant buildings are not up to date etc., but the vacant buildings are tied up in legal limbo and have book values that are high. So a new start up auto supplier or other business is better off going to a 'build to suit'.

    So, with the bankruptsy of an existing supplier a new auto supplier can't take over the old building in any reasonable amount of time.

    2nd,
    Tooling: Often the tooling a vendor uses is owned by the customer. At bankruptsy it is stuck in the wrong location and can't be dispositioned until the legal issues are cleared up. It may be quicker and more cost effective to build new tooling especially if you are going to use it in a new location. There are many complicating issues like this.

    3rd,
    The few workers with valuable expertize move out of state.

    4th,
    It is very much quicker and less costly to expand a running supplier than to restart a bankrupt one. And now most of those are off shore.

    5th,
    If you are going to start a new one you will consider all possible locations. Things like labor costs, labor skill sets, worker rights, taxes, bribes, legal system, etc.

    6th,
    Grand Rapids, or the US, is not the place I'd choose if I had to re-establish capasity quickly I were the CEO
    of Toyota, Honda etc.

    The way the auto business is split up into may pieces, most supported by cash flow,
    when you stop a significant piece of it you can break the whole thing.
    A couple things: I have worked in a couple of those now vacant buildings in Grand Rapids. Note however that the auto suppliers there have learned the lesson from this recession and are doing something different...they are diversifying. Why just supply the auto industry when there are many other industries out there? Since MI gives huge tax breaks for green businesses, why not supply some of them and get tax breaks?

    In the auto industry, the customer almost always owns the tooling. The customer in the auto industry has all the power, and the suppliers just have to hope.

    There are still many workers with expertise in MI.

    There are literally hundreds of still active auto suppliers in MI.

    GM, Toyota etc don't much care where suppliers have set up shop. They are simply looking for the lowest bid that can provide the work.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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