View Poll Results: Should Wiscnson Democrats be paid while they hide in Illinois?

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  • Yes

    27 21.43%
  • No

    99 78.57%
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Thread: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

  1. #61
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    This is how I'd view things if it happened in my state:

    I did not stand in line this last election for 3 hours to vote only to have my vote turn into someone hopping out of MY STATE to NOT show up and VOTE for something.

    I don't want those who I vote for to be chicken-****s. I want them to do their JOBS. That MEANS: make an adequate and persuasive argument AGAINST something that they don't support while they have the time to do so and then be there when they need to be and VOTE when they need to vote.

    If they write out and deliver arguments and rebuttals that AREN'T persuasive enough then running away won't change that.
    If I believed that something fundamentally immoral and potentially cataclysmic were about to happen and there was just one method by which I could prevent it from happening, wouldn't I be betraying the people I represent NOT to pursue that course of action?

    It appears to me that they are not breaking the law, they are not breaking the rules of the House and they are protecting a significant and important group of their constituents.

    I don't understand why people are getting so het up about whether they should be paid or not. How minor a consideration is that to all concerned?
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    If I believed that something fundamentally immoral and potentially cataclysmic were about to happen and there was just one method by which I could prevent it from happening, wouldn't I be betraying the people I represent NOT to pursue that course of action?

    It appears to me that they are not breaking the law, they are not breaking the rules of the House and they are protecting a significant and important group of their constituents.

    I don't understand why people are getting so het up about whether they should be paid or not. How minor a consideration is that to all concerned?
    What's wrong with showing up and voting, though?

    If you oppose it - vote AGAINST it - argue AGAINST it - and if it passes because more people voted for it then it's not *your* doing.

    By skipping out they've unstitched EVERYONE'S lives with the ensuing strike and drama that THEY caused - If that happened in my state I'd be so infuriated I'd probably blow my top so thoroughly.

    See - because I was raised on the belief that your VOTE countes. If the MAJORITY votes 'yes' - then why should the MINORITY still somehow have the power to overturn the majoirities decision because they wanted to abandon ship?

    That's NOT how our system is suppose to be influenced or work.
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    What rights are those?

    Be prepared to cite either the State or Federal Constitution to support your answer. (I heard rumour you are a retired teacher; if true you know the drill.)
    Do the union workers have the freedom to assemble?


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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    What's wrong with showing up and voting, though? If you oppose it - vote AGAINST it - argue AGAINST it - and if it passes because more people voted for it then it's not *your* doing.
    I don't think this is an exercise in just covering their asses and avoiding being blamed for the damage to the lives and livelihoods of the Wisconsin workers - it's about preventing that damage, if they can, by all means legal and available.
    By skipping out they've unstitched EVERYONE'S lives with the ensuing strike and drama that THEY caused - If that happened in my state I'd be so infuriated I'd probably blow my top so thoroughly.
    No, the Governor's dangerous and immoral proposal is the cause of the drama.

    See - because I was raised on the belief that your VOTE countes. If the MAJORITY votes 'yes' - then why should the MINORITY still somehow have the power to overturn the majoirities decision because they wanted to abandon ship?

    That's NOT how our system is suppose to be influenced or work.
    Not necessarily. The system operates with a number of checks and balances that limits the power of elected officials, preventing them from acting in a dictatorial and unfair manner. Some people may argue that the only limit to the power of elected officials is the ability to vote them out once every so many years. I think most people would say that there must exist the possibility of influencing decision-making more often. Congressional procedure is one such example of the checks and balances built into a democratic system. That is what these reps are using.

    As I've said previously, there are several procedural techniques for a member of a minority and/or opposition in a legislature to prevent the majority always getting its own way. Filibustering is one, this is another, use of points of order a third. I think that's the way a modern democracy is meant to work.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 02-23-11 at 01:22 PM.
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I say yes. They are doing what their voters elected them to do which is oppose and prevent legislation that their constituents oppose and support and enact legislation that their voters support.
    You got it right.

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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    I've really thought long and hard about this one and how I view what the Wisconsian Democrats are doing. First off, I have no problems with the minority party using obstructionist tactics. A lot of these procedural roadblocks were put into place to give the minority party some voice in government and to prevent a tyranny of the majority.

    That said, I don't think the rules regarding a quorum fit into the category. My understanding is we require a quorum so a small group of representives can't call a midnight session and ram through controversial legislation simply because they are the only ones who showed up. So I think depriving the state Senate a quorum to block legilsation goes against the spirit of the rule and should not be considered in the same boat as filbustering or tying things up in committee or any other number of procedural roadblocks politicians can use.

    I will say if it were something truly awful being proposed. Something that grossly violated the principles of this nation (like ending private property or reinstituting slavery or something else really radical and unAmerican) I could see using any and all means to defeat or block such a measure. But I don't think the stakes are nearly high enough on this issue to warrant that sort of political guerrilla warfare.
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Hmm. I wonder if Wisc needs a quorum to vote on making it a "right to work" state. It's my understanding that they only need a quorum under certain circumstances, one of which is appropriating funds.

    If not, it would be a clever albeit devious move to pass a "right to work" state amendment in the democrat's absence. That way they can remove the offensive "union busting" language from the budget bill, because unions would now be moot.

    BTW, I am NOT a republican and I'm definitely NOT a "tea bagger"... perish the thought... but one does not have to be an extreme conservative to be against the kind of economic bullying that unions have wrought in many areas of the country, more specifically in the public sector. People have no constitutional right to collective bargaining, especially not when their wages are being paid by taxpayers purchasing a service rather than consumers purchasing a product. The governor has handled this like a ham-handed noob, but what he wants is neither illegal nor immoral. He's just going about it in a really poor way. That is still no excuse for organizing a democratic "escape". They work for all the people of the state, not just democrats, not just union members. They have betrayed the trust of a hell of a lot of Wisconsin citizens.

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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't think this is an exercise in just covering their asses and avoiding being blamed for the damage to the lives and livelihoods of the Wisconsin workers - it's about preventing that damage, if they can, by all means legal and available.
    No, the Governor's dangerous and immoral proposal is the cause of the drama.
    See - exactly what I mean when I say they've held the people of the state hostage. . . so now people can't even PROPOSE A bill that some might disagree with lest it cause a strike. . . which is the exact OPPOSITE of our system and how it works.

    There are *a lot* of bills in my state that are possibly detrimental - there are bills going through Congress that are WORSE than this one - is the ensuing drama NECESSARY?

    Not necessarily. The system operates with a number of checks and balances that limits the power of elected officials, preventing them from acting in a dictatorial and unfair manner. Some people may argue that the only limit to the power of elected officials is the ability to vote them out once every so many years. I think most people would say that there must exist the possibility of influencing decision-making more often. Congressional procedure is one such example of the checks and balances built into a democratic system. That is what these reps are using.

    As I've said previously, there are several procedural techniques for a member of a minority and/or opposition in a legislature to prevent the majority always getting its own way. Filibustering is one, this is another, use of points of order a third. I think that's the way a modern democracy is meant to work.
    Yeah - so why cause quite the stink if other means are even there?
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Yeah - so why cause quite the stink if other means are even there?
    Seems to me the stink is being caused by those who disagree with the reps actions, not the reps themselves.
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    Re: Should Wisconsin Democrats be paid while they hide out in Illinois?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Seems to me the stink is being caused by those who disagree with the reps actions, not the reps themselves.
    My husband spends a lot of time flying and driving internationally to fetch AWOL soldiers.

    I don't support the notion that one has the 'right' to abandon their post on the taxpayers dime.
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