View Poll Results: Do you support Obama's continuation of the war in Afghanistan?

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  • Yes, I support Obama's continuation of the war in Afghanistan.

    15 34.88%
  • No, I don't support Obama's continuation of the war in Afghanistan.

    22 51.16%
  • Other

    6 13.95%
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Thread: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

  1. #71
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This was the situation. Until a year ago, Afghanistan was not the focus. Iraq was. Even today, coalition forces, to include the U.S. Army, have celebrated a trend to hunker down instead of being proactive in their efforts. Instead of pushing forward with social and security programs, they treated the effort as an 8 hour a day job. Italians were training ANSF/ANAF differently than the French were. The Briitish were treating local villages diffrently then the Georgians were. Etc. The result has been a lot of stagnation. In the end, everyone was treating this as if they oinly had to hunker down in safety and wait out their end dates.
    And that has changed now? When was it announced that we're going to be staying in Afghanistan for a long time? What additional focus on Afghanistan is there now that we're out of Iraq...just more security, or more actual assistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    This is no longer the case. Coalition generals have visited Camp Lejeune recently to see what we are doing different that has produced such change over the last year in Marine sectors (towards Pakistan and Iran). ANSF/ANAF is responding better than before and local villages are responding to a more uncorrupt system of gaining assistance. The government is responding to coalition watchdogs who look for corruption.
    The head of government himself is a corrupt dictator. The country remains one of the most corrupt on earth by virtually every measure I've seen. Is there any measurement that suggests the corruption situation improving?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    Intel has intercepted transmissions between Taliban leadersinsttructing them torefrain from attacking Marine units because they are "crazy and unkillable and cannot be exploited." They are notjust referring to Marines. They are referring to the ANSF/ANAF that have Marines embedded. We have also gotten away from allowing the enemy to dictate the pace of the war. Instead of retiring for the winter months, they are having to defend from coalition and ANSF/ANAF aggression.
    You're talking about tactical security. I'm talking about strategic economic development.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    It's happening. Bigger economic concerns very much depend upon other programs such as the transition from poppy to wheat. Or the pipelines that are to carry natural gas out of Afghanistan. Getting away from the drug trade will address much of the corruption within the government.
    How do you plan to get wheat to port? And how do you plan to convince desperately impoverished farmers that they should grow a crop worth maybe one-tenth (or less) of what they're growing now?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    It's not a one or the other. They are both concerns and they are both key to each other. It doesn't help that much of the taliban "tribe" is rooted on both sides of the border.
    No. Pakistan first, then Afghanistan. Pakistan has a coast, Afghanistan does not. Trying to develop Afghanistan's economy right now is hopeless, because it is reliant on the failed state to its south, and the US military cannot change Afghanistan's geography. It will ALWAYS be poor as long as Pakistan is poor. Pakistan, however, will not necessarily be poor just because Afghanistan is.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    And you don't think they are being addressed as well? CENTCOM doesn't just deal with locations where our military is present. National aid to these countries is a factor. Politicial and diplomatic lean is a factor. We do not have to invade everywhere to address terrorist havens within foreign governments... and we don't.
    I'm not suggesting we invade everywhere. I'm suggesting we use any and all of our nation-building efforts A) to rid the world of the conditions in which terrorism thrives, and B) in a responsible manner that does not involve throwing away money on lost causes when there are plenty of troubled spots on the globe that can actually use the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    Do you think Egypt's future is on a pace all its own?
    Huh, Egypt? For the most part, yes. But Egypt is fine. It's certainly not Afghanistan.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-13-11 at 06:51 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, that's because you have chosen to shut down (in 2003 no doubt) and refuse wider thought. Immediate withdrawal from Iraq would not have produced the Iraq you see today. And it would not serve as an example to the rest. It would also be a festering mess full of Al-Queda agents who are building safe havens for which my kind (and your son's) would have to bleed later for.
    The Iraq I see today is one with the new corrupt regime we helped install that cannot stand against its own people without our military occupation. There was no al Qaeda/Saddam connection. See the Pentagon/CIA report.

    Immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan now is equally stupid and short sighted
    .

    Yeah the big fear tactic used back then was that if Vietnam fell to communism the rest of the world would follow. Tell, me something, did that happen? Haven't we been doing business with communist Vietnam for decades.

    This is bigger than Afghanistan. The enemy nol onger marches under a government banner in a uniform with a swastika on his shoulder. He no longer takes to the field to pit tank against tank under the expressed declaration of war with his neighbor. Our wars are no longer so neat and packaged for the simple folk who need such things to address an enemy. And this isn't new. The twentieth century merely gave history and the globe's civilizations a timeout from the norm.
    That's the same fear tactics used during the Vietnam War and the Iraq war. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now.

    We have the most powerful military on the planet, I don't understand the fear of people with no planes, no ships, no submarines, no giant missiles, no nuclear weapons. We have all of 'em and more than the rest of the world combined.

    Bin Laden said the way he would defeat America was not on the battlefield, it would be by depleting our financial resources by fighting wars we could not win. Judging by the size of our National debt, he may not have too much longer to wait, if we continue to play right into his plans.

    Trying to win a war against your own irrational fears can never be successful.
    Last edited by Catawba; 02-13-11 at 07:04 PM.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Then let them move. They tried to set up camp in Iraq when tribal differences began to surface. They failed because their kind can't exist in societies where people have a choice for something better. They have been denied their base in Afghanistan and have moved to Pakistan. With a strong Pathan government in Afganistan, they will not return. Their best hope is that we leave prematurely (like they hoped in Iraq) or seek to disrupt the fragile Pakistani government. Do you not understand why crime is greatest in poor/uneducated neighborhoods even in the U.S.?
    They failed because we spent trillions of dollars dumping millions of tons of ordnance on them. There are always going to be places that will welcome them with open arms because there are always going to be people who are sick and tired of the U.S. trying to control their lives. I'm willing to bet that the second we're out of Afghanistan, they'll be back. That's exactly what happened the second we turned our focus to Iraq. We leave, they come back. We're not actually changing the people's minds about terrorism, we're just distracting them with tons of money and flashy trinkets. When the money goes away, they go back to their old ways.

    This is generational and it is region wide. Where before we could get away with supporting the Cold War dictator for stability, we now have to begin living up to our free/democratic rhetoric and support the people who will never end up choosing oppression.





    It is a good idea. Or do you think minding our own business about these wrecked and oppressed territories where terrorism goes so unchecked was a good idea on 9/11?

    You don't know what you are talking about. I can tell because your remark is very sophomoric and lacks understanding.[/QUOTE]
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Continuation of the War in Afghanistan weakens America. There are many historical precedents of a country fighting the wrong battles which have the effect of weakening them.

  5. #75
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    I understand that our troops deal with wonderful people every day, people they have become fond of, people they wish to help. But dispite the insistance that Karzai's corrupt government will be dealt with, the reality is that the rigged election will allow him to stay in office, siphoning USA money into his own pocket, for years to come.

    Meanwhile, his government, which has insisted that it will restore rights to the women in the country, is systematically removing those rights which were so painfully restored.

    Women who have fled from abusive husbands and families that would kill them have found some protection at women's shelters in Kabul. Karzai's government is now passing a law that would put onerous burdens on these women, and have the authority to send them back to face certain death.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/wo...11shelter.html

    ...The changes in the law would require a woman like Sabra to justify her flight to an eight-member government panel, which would determine whether she needed to be in a shelter or should be sent to jail or back home, where she would be at risk of a beating or even death. She would also have to undergo a physical exam that could include a virginity test.

    ...women’s advocates see the effort as an example of government pandering to religious and social conservatives as President Hamid Karzai’s administration starts reconciliation efforts with insurgents. Women’s rights, they fear, will be the first area in which the government makes compromises.

    “I’m not sure why they are doing it — maybe because the government is becoming more conservative and to appease the Taliban they are doing things like this,” said Manizha Naderi, the director of Women for Afghan Women, which runs three shelters and five family counseling centers around the country...

    The evolution of the new rules began in 2009 when Mr. Karzai set up a commission led by a senior religious figure, Mullah Nematullah Shahrani, to look into the shelters and prepare a report.

    Senior officials at the Women’s Affairs Ministry insist that the new rules are for the good of the women and that they have no intention of taking over existing shelters. A copy of the draft rules obtained by The New York Times makes clear, however, that nongovernmental organizations would no longer run shelters...
    The 2-page article is bone-chilling to me, and a horrific step backwards for the rights of Aghan women. Karzai's government is not to bring democracy to his people. It's to solidify his own power by any means necessary.

    The USA should not support this man or his government any longer. We should withdraw our money and our troops. Afghanistan will remain a tribal culture until Afghans decide they want something more. Until then, there is nothing more we can do there.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 02-14-11 at 12:46 AM.

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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    In for a penny, in for a pound. Nation-building is a demanding and time-consuming process, and if we didn't have the stomach for it we shouldn't have started on this course.
    t
    No, you shouldn't have, because you clearly don't have the stomach for it.

  7. #77
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    The war was horribly mismanaged for nearly a decade, things don't seem to be improving much, and I'm not really convinced it's salvageable. At what point do you just cut your losses and pull out?

  8. #78
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I understand that our troops deal with wonderful people every day, people they have become fond of, people they wish to help. But dispite the insistance that Karzai's corrupt government will be dealt with, the reality is that the rigged election will allow him to stay in office, siphoning USA money into his own pocket, for years to come.

    Meanwhile, his government, which has insisted that it will restore rights to the women in the country, is systematically removing those rights which were so painfully restored.

    Women who have fled from abusive husbands and families that would kill them have found some protection at women's shelters in Kabul. Karzai's government is now passing a law that would put onerous burdens on these women, and have the authority to send them back to face certain death.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/wo...11shelter.html



    The 2-page article is bone-chilling to me, and a horrific step backwards for the rights of Aghan women. Karzai's government is not to bring democracy to his people. It's to solidify his own power by any means necessary.

    The USA should not support this man or his government any longer. We should withdraw our money and our troops. Afghanistan will remain a tribal culture until Afghans decide they want something more. Until then, there is nothing more we can do there.
    Yeah - I read that. It's really disturbing.

    But I think that points to more of a reason why we should change our approach - not withdraw altogether. When a country throws a woman in jail because she doesn't want to marry tehre's a serious problem (this isn't directly detailed in the article but it is implied - since that's one of the 3 things that could happen to the women in focus)

    A decade ago, shelters for abused women did not even exist in Afghanistan, where even now many of the worst practices associated with the Taliban era, like arranged marriages for child brides, public flogging and mutilation of women, continue in rural areas.
    Today, about 14 women’s shelters exist, financed by a mix of international organizations, private donors and Western governments. The new rules, drafted by the Women’s Affairs Ministry, would place those shelters under direct government control.
    Moreover - on this particular issue - they need to get over *their selves* and start to address their issues for the fact that htey're *actually a problem*

    Some conservative members of Parliament would like to have the shelters closed altogether. Hajji Neyaz Mohammed, a lawmaker from Ghazni Province, bluntly condemned shelters as “the official places for increasing perversion in our country.”
    “These shelters create problems in families and homes, and they motivate girls to flee from their houses,” he said.
    In 90 percent of cases when girls return from the shelters to their villages, they will not be accepted by the community and will be suspected of having committed adultery, he said.
    ^^^ What this guy says against the Women's Shelters sounds like some dribble from the Conservative *far* right against Birth Control Clinics and gay marriage.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 02-14-11 at 04:13 PM.
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  9. #79
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    In reviewing the thread responses so far, I found it interesting to note that while there is a majority here not in favor of Obama's continuation of the war in Afghanistan, conservatives support the so called liberal president's continuation of the war by two to one margin over the liberals.
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  10. #80
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    Re: Do you support Obama in continuing the Afghanistan war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    In reviewing the thread responses so far, I found it interesting to note that while there is a majority here not in favor of Obama's continuation of the war in Afghanistan, conservatives support the so called liberal president's continuation of the war by two to one margin over the liberals.
    That's becuase for some people war isn't about political ****ology.
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