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Against/not against.

Are you against or not against the following?

  • I am against both TSA Body Scanners and Abortion.

    Votes: 13 28.9%

  • I am againt TSA Body Scanners but am not against Abortion.

    Votes: 13 28.9%

  • I am not against both TSA Body Scanners and Abortion.

    Votes: 15 33.3%

  • I am not against TSA Body Scanners but am against Abortion.

    Votes: 4 8.9%
  • Total voters
    45
earthworm said:
Ridiculous, one has nothing to do with the other, so no vote...
If a correlation can be established, let me know.
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Jerry said:
I still have no idea what this thread is about. I looked at the poll options and was like "anti-body-scan + anti-abortion, that's me".
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Read Post #11 please.
 
Kal'Stang said:
This post brings to light what the premise is of this thread. And I will admit, as CC said, it is a bit of a stretch.

In Roe vs Wade anti-abortion laws were considered to be unconstitutional for privacy reasons. IE it violated the 4th amendment. Which is actually understandable when you consider that a persons medical records, be they physical or mental are considered to be damn near sancrosanct even to the point of doctors being barred from telling police about illegals that come into thier hospitals. The only way for police to access medical records is via a warrant. As far as I know not even the Patriot Act violated that part of our laws.

Now I'm sure that people will say that this right shouldn't apply because we're talking about an innocent life here. But honestly why shouldn't it? The very fundamental principle of the US is individual freedoms. That everyone, regardless of belief system, has an inalienable right, and that the majority should not be able to take that right away, unless there are lives at steak. Which of course for those that are anti-abortion is the very fundemental reason to be anti-abortion.

But then here comes the TSA and body scanners. They wish to put these body scanners into place in order to attempt to save innocent life. When all is said and done the TSA's goal is very similiar to that of an anti-abortionist. Only real difference is that of age. Yet here the innocent life on a plane is apparently less than that of a baby in the womb (ironically there are unborn babies in wombs aplenty on a plane also). Because here people holler about 4th amendment violations. Now people will no doubt try to draw comparisons between the amount of innocent life taken vs innocent life taken between the two. Problem here is that in order to be consistant every life should be valued just as equally as the next, irregardless of circumstances or amounts.

So when all is boiled down and consistant, you have two very different situations. Both of them are about a right to privacy. Yet as Jamesrage has evidenced here, there are contradictions between the two.

Note to Jamesrage: Sorry james, but you did fall neatly into the trap I placed. ;)
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So, do you support abolishing all speed limits across the country? If you don't, you can't call yourself pro-choice or can we agree that details matter and that different thing are, well, different?
 
Kal'Stang said:
First there really wasn't a need to post this twice.

All that a doctor would need to do is appear reluctant to the idea. If the woman persisted and he "gave in" he could go on record as being pressured into it. Which would then constitute entrapment.
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Its no more entrapment than a bait car, John Sting or a bogus drug deal.

Really? Do explain how this would be done please.
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Set up fake abortion clinics or providers to catch women attempting to have abortions and have pregnant female cops try solicit abortion providers.


Even the most healthy of women can have a miscarriage. (heck a simple herbal drink can make a woman miscarry) Scientists are by no means 100% positive about what all causes miscarriages. You're right though. All it takes for a warrant to be issued is probable cause. Which I suppose someone calling in could give. There is however a problem with this. How many people would use such an easily available system of griefing? How many pissed off ex-boyfriends, jealous women, pissed off co-workers would use such a system to embarress and hurt someone? How many peoples 4th amendment rights is it ok to violate just to make sure that they didn't have an abortion performed? Irregardless if they were actually pregnant or not or just had a simple miscarriage? Those peoples rights would be violated.
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Checking out a perfectly healthy woman who was pregnant but for some mysterious reason is longer pregnant the is no more a violation of the 4th than searching a junky's pockets was caught taking drugs.

It is far easier to catch someone that is doing drugs than it is to catch a woman getting an abortion done on video.
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Statistically almost half of those who had abortions are repeat costumers and even those who are at most had one previous abortion. So its not like an abortion provider can know if he has a real costumer or a undercover. Nor can a woman really know if she is going to a real abortion clinic or if she is walking into a set up. And eventually a under ground provider will get caught.


Abortion Statistics
47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Sting operations would be far less effective on a doctor than it is a druggy. OH sure you might get a few. But not near as many I think you think would be caught.

As for citizens reporting criminal activity...read above. Also consider how many people there are that DON'T report crimes in progress...much less one that they are not even sure is happening as would have to be the case in an abortion case (again, assuming that the citizen doing the reporting is doing so honestly).
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You don't have to catch them all. Just enough to discourage the other providers and women seeking abortion.


The idea that abortion is legal because banning abortion would violate the 4th amendment is idiotic.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
This will be an open poll. That way we can just discard all anonymous votes.

One question, two subjects.

1: Are you against/not against TSA body scanners?

2: Are you against/not against abortion?

Why?

There will be no "other" option as quite frankly I don't care about "other" options. This thread is not about "other" options.
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I voted wrong... :(

I should have read more carefully..
 
jamesrage said:
There is no constitutional right to abortion.Banning abortion does not require you peek in medical records, so the SC messed up royally in their ruling. So it is totally absurd to even compare a non-right like abortion to something that is a violation of the constitution like full body scanners at airports.
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Proving you were raped or that your life is at risk... and absolutely at risk, not just your health and safety.. does require the government peeking into your medical records. Some people in the government are even trying to define rape and force, and what is the difference between a health risk and life risk, so yeah... there is going to be government intrustion in your life, women's healthcare, and in court records...
 
jamesrage said:
No it wouldn't. Just like cops do John Stings, fake drug deals and Bait cars they can catch those attempting to perform an abortion or those seeking an abortion,these stings could lead to getting a search warrant to look at records to lead to not only a conviction for an attempted abortion but also for abortions performed assuming the abortion provider is stupid enough to have a record. These things do not violate the 4th amendment. Some concerned private citizen could provide a video tape to the police or statements that someone is performing abortion. If a woman who was pregnant is suddenly no longer pregnant then there would be probably cause to suspect that she did something to cause her pregnancy to be terminated. These things do not require peeking into medical records. Banning abortion does not in any shape or form violate the 4th amendment, nor is there a constitutional right to abortion. Again the SC blatantly screwed up.
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Or you can advocate what they do in South America... just wait for the women come into the ER bleeding to death, and give the doctors and staff legal protections to watch them die.

No offense... but all this is why I am against criminalizing abortion. Making it illegal doesn't solve anything, it just creates a different problem.
 
Kal'Stang said:
How would a sting operation be set up without leading to entrapment? And as you say someone performing abortions would have to be stupid by keeping documents of such procedures around so at most you could only get a doctor for that one attempt. Again, assuming you have a way to do the sting without leading to getting the case and all evidence obtained thrown out due to entrapment laws.

As for getting the women that get the procedure done...well that would be next to impossible. While I would imagine that could be determined via an examination you would have to get a warrant in order to get that examination done, even then I would imagine that there would be a time stamp in how long such an examination could be done in order to detect anything. Problem here is that you would have to have compelling evidence that something illegal was done. Such evidence would be hard...if not impossible to get as the woman could very well have just had a miscarriage. Assumptions would not procure a warrant so the only way to get a warrant is if a sting operation was completed successfully and the abortion doctor kept records and done in such a way as to not get in trouble with entrapment laws. Your concerned citizen would not be enough as there still has to be physical evidence that something illegal was being done. While the video would be enough...what doctor (even the stupid ones that kept records) would allow such a video to take place while performing the abortion...much less allowing anyone other than the woman wanting the abortion inside the room while the operation was taking place. Assuming that the woman would bring someone along with her in the first place that she didn't completely and utterly trust.

In essence, at some point in the procedure, you would have to violate the 4th amendment in order to get evidence that something illegal was being done.
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Abortion used to be illegal of course... and all those things were done, and look where we are now... lol. I watched a documentary about women who had abortions when it was illegal. If they developed an infection, they'd go to the hospital or to a clinic. If the staff knew what it was from, some of them would try to get the women to talk. If the women refused to talk... nothing was done. They were just treated horribly by some of the staff. Other people on the staff supported abortion rights and tried to help the women suffering infections, and then the abortion ring would grow and grow.

Now of course... we have non surgical abortions... like the pill, and that will just cause a miscarriage.
 
jamesrage said:
If a perfectly healthy pregnant woman was suddenly not pregnant and someone reported that she had an abortion it would be good enough to have reasonable cause that she did something illegal.
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Perfectly healthy women have miscarriages!

And lots of pregnant women and girls have early term abortions before there is any sign they are pregnant... so unless you're going to do womb checks, you really can't monitor the unborn population
 
jamesrage said:
Checking out a perfectly healthy woman who was pregnant but for some mysterious reason is longer pregnant the is no more a violation of the 4th than searching a junky's pockets was caught taking drugs.
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Asking somebody to remove everything fome their pockets is A LOT different than checking to see if a woman is still pregnant or had a natural miscarriage... After you give birth or have a miscarriage the stomach is still swollen, and after birth, miscarriage, and abortion a simple pregnancy test will still read positive... because it takes a while for the hormone levels in the body to go back down. It would require an ultrasound.. more specifically a vagina ultrasound (putting a wand up your yoohoo) to comb over all the evidence. Vagina ultrasounds are really common, especially when the doc is trying TO FIND the embyro because all are not in the place inside the womb.

I'd say that is very intrustive... Some women and girl's are really particular about who is going to do those exams on them, and you want it enforced on them by the law. I am completely uncomfortable with this... it would be way too intrustive, moreso than the TSA scans and if the government abused such athority... OMG. Disgusting! It's not even worth the hassel or the risk. We are talking about young girls in some cases...
 
I'm indifferent about body scanners. However I am strongly against abortion.
 
SheWolf said:
Or you can advocate what they do in South America... just wait for the women come into the ER bleeding to death, and give the doctors and staff legal protections to watch them die.
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The lets keep it legal and safe for a woman to kill her unborn child is a idiotic argument that only abortionist use. As a pro-lifer/anti-abortionist the last thing I want is for it to be safe and legal for someone to kill their unborn child.



No offense... but all this is why I am against criminalizing abortion. Making it illegal doesn't solve anything, it just creates a different problem.
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I strongly disagree. It would make it hard for a woman to kill her unborn child.


Proving you were raped
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You can't prove rape with medical tests. And if the law did make a rape exception an abortion should be allowed after someone has been convicted of rape. Besides that I do not think there should be an abortion exception for rape, don't punish the child for the actions of his or her father.

or that your life is at risk... and absolutely at risk, not just your health and safety.. does require the government peeking into your medical records.
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No it wouldn't. You make abortions only legal in hospitals and every now and then send in a pregnant under cover to try to get an abortion with no life threatening condition to catch doctors trying to administer unauthorized abortions.


Perfectly healthy women have miscarriages!

And lots of pregnant women and girls have early term abortions before there is any sign they are pregnant... so unless you're going to do womb checks, you really can't monitor the unborn population
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I realize that we can't catch those who have early term abortions,unless an abortion provider was stupid enough to keep records or if there was a concerned citizen video taping the abortion.


Making abortion illegal does not in any shape or form violate the 4th amendment. cops do not need to violate the 4th amendment to catch drug dealers, bust meth labs and other criminals.Making abortion illegal would be no different than catching other criminals.
 
Kal, although I agree a creative way to look at the parallels, I'm not in agreement that your argument holds any weight in practical terms. In Roe v. Wade, the right to determine was indeed an interpretation on privacy rights, and providing a rationale basis test. The SCOTUS essentially codified what was "reasonable", finding, although arguably, a compromise with respect to right to privacy, and that of reasonable state interest. Conversly, body scans are interpreted much the same way. Is it unreasonable to search, irrespective of privacy, someone's body at an airport? Using the same scrutiny, one would argue that it is most certainly reasonable; therefore, it is reasonable to be against abortion, and yet, also be for, or in support of, body scans.

Side note: I'm somewhat embarrassed that I did not sniff this one out.. Kudos.. :)


Tim-
 
jamesrage said:
The lets keep it legal and safe for a woman to kill her unborn child is a idiotic argument that only abortionist use. As a pro-lifer/anti-abortionist the last thing I want is for it to be safe and legal for someone to kill their unborn child.

I strongly disagree. It would make it hard for a woman to kill her unborn child.
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Make it harder... maybe, stop females stop doing it altogether, no.

You act like nobody would go to a foreign country or take an abortion pill. You act like everybody is going to try to get an illegal abortion at a legitimate hospital, and that's not what happened before RvW. Abortions were preformed in homes and in hotel rooms... sometimes in makeshift clinics, but rarely in hospitals and with clean medical equipment.

Right now, there are boats that go to some countries and pick up females who want abortions, and then preform the abortions legally, in international waters... lol

But if you just overturn RvW, it will just back to the states... so then these females would go to other states, not exactly leave the country or have to go into international waters.

You can't prove rape with medical tests. And if the law did make a rape exception an abortion should be allowed after someone has been convicted of rape. Besides that I do not think there should be an abortion exception for rape, don't punish the child for the actions of his or her father.
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After the conviction... you know how long a conviction might take? You could just allow her to abort a 4 week old embryo, but no... wait until he is convicted and it's a 4 to 6 month old fetus

No it wouldn't. You make abortions only legal in hospitals and every now and then send in a pregnant under cover to try to get an abortion with no life threatening condition to catch doctors trying to administer unauthorized abortions.
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No offensive, but this is a ridiculous idea...

I realize that we can't catch those who have early term abortions,unless an abortion provider was stupid enough to keep records or if there was a concerned citizen video taping the abortion.
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Every patient omitted to a hospital requires a record, and every surgery requires a staff of people administering medications and checking the patient's records.. which is another reason why you're ridiculous for thinking doctors would accept patients who come in and ask for an illegal abortion.

They'd easily get caught, and it wouldn't even take an undercover cop... it would just take a nurse or an assistant asking where her records are, who preformed the ultrasound, where is the ultrasound photo? Why wasn't the abortion entered in her medical records?
 
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SheWolf said:
Make it harder... maybe, stop females stop doing it altogether, no.
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I am well aware that you can't stop everyone. Laws against murder do not stop everyone, nor do laws against drugs stop everyone. However our prisons are full of people who d these things.
You act like nobody would go to a foreign country or take an abortion pill.
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A lot of people go to other countries to do what may consider crimes in our countries. However not everyone can afford a trip to another country.

You act like everybody is going to try to get an illegal abortion at a legitimate hospital, and that's not what happened before RvW. Abortions were preformed in homes and in hotel rooms... sometimes in makeshift clinics, but rarely in hospitals and with clean medical equipment.
Right now, there are boats that go to some countries and pick up females who want abortions, and then preform the abortions legally, in international waters... lol
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We have 1.37 million abortions in this country. I seriously doubt that many people could take a boat trip in the US to other countries just to have an abortion.

Abortion Statistics
But if you just overturn RvW, it will just back to the states... so then these females would go to other states, not exactly leave the country or have to go into international waters.
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I am not a let the states decide on the issue of abortion I believe abortion is no different than murder, the last thing I want is states deciding the legality of this.

After the conviction... you know how long a conviction might take?You could just allow her to abort a 4 week old embryo, but no... wait until he is convicted and it's a 4 to 6 month old fetus
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I don't care. Abortionist are the least honest people. Nothing would stop them from claiming rape and then dropping charges after an abortion.





No offensive, but this is a ridiculous idea...
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It works for catching car theives, drug dealers and other criminals. Therefore it is not a ridiculous idea.


Every patient omitted to a hospital requires a record, and every surgery requires a staff of people administering medications and checking the patient's records.. which is another reason why you're ridiculous for thinking doctors would accept patients who come in and ask for an illegal abortion.
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You assume criminals obey the law. They don't
 
jamesrage said:
I am well aware that you can't stop everyone. Laws against murder do not stop everyone, nor do laws against drugs stop everyone. However our prisons are full of people who d these things.


A lot of people go to other countries to do what may consider crimes in our countries. However not everyone can afford a trip to another country.

You act like everybody is going to try to get an illegal abortion at a legitimate hospital, and that's not what happened before RvW. Abortions were preformed in homes and in hotel rooms... sometimes in makeshift clinics, but rarely in hospitals and with clean medical equipment.


We have 1.37 million abortions in this country. I seriously doubt that many people could take a boat trip in the US to other countries just to have an abortion.

Abortion Statistics


I am not a let the states decide on the issue of abortion I believe abortion is no different than murder, the last thing I want is states deciding the legality of this.



I don't care. Abortionist are the least honest people. Nothing would stop them from claiming rape and then dropping charges after an abortion.







It works for catching car theives, drug dealers and other criminals. Therefore it is not a ridiculous idea.




You assume criminals obey the law. They don't
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The abortion rate in Brazil is higher... 1.44 million, and abortion is ILLEGAL in Brazil. Making abortion illegal has little to no impact on the rate of abortion.

The Incidence of Abortion Worldwide

A recent study conducted in Brazil revealed that although abortion is illegal in almost all cases, nearly 1 in 5 women of childbearing age have terminated a pregnancy, a staggeringly high percentage considering that the vast majority were obtained outside the law. And indeed, these are often unsafe procedures; 200,000 women are hospitalized each year due to complications from illegal abortions.
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Illegal Abortions Proliferate in Brazil, Despite Abortion Ban

Making abortion illegal to stop it, it impractial and you'll end up creating another problem... women and young girls die as a result. How many women do you know have had an abortion? Are you willing to see them die for your beliefs?

And you have already admitted that a female can easily have an abortion without you ever knowing... so it's actually impossible for you know exactly WHO you might be putting at risk with the laws you promote.
 
SheWolf said:
The abortion rate in Brazil is higher... 1.44 million, and abortion is ILLEGAL in Brazil. Making abortion illegal has little to no impact on the rate of abortion.

The Incidence of Abortion Worldwide


Illegal Abortions Proliferate in Brazil, Despite Abortion Ban
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Abortion is not illegal in Brazil. Brazil has a health and rape exceptions and I am pretty sure those exceptions are abused. Nor can you compare a country like Brazil with a lousy law enforcement and rampant corruption to a country like the US.

Summary of Abortion Laws Around the World

World Abortion Law Map

Brazil Corruption Gets Better. Country as Corrupt as Colombia Now


Making abortion illegal to stop it, it impractial and you'll end up creating another problem... women and young girls die as a result.
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To a prolifer the lets keep abortion legal so it is safe for a mother to kill her children is a idiotic reason to keep abortion legal. Its like saying lets have tax payers provide bullet proof vests to potential violent criminals to keep them safe while robbing a home, trying to kill someone and etc.

How many women do you know have had an abortion?
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None.
Are you willing to see them die for your beliefs?
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I am happy to see anyone die for attempting to their child. Just as I would any other attempted murder, bank robber, car theif, attempted rapist gets killed in the process of committing a crime.

And you have already admitted that a female can easily have an abortion without you ever knowing... so it's actually impossible for you know exactly WHO you might be putting at risk with the laws you promote.
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If a relative or friend of mine did get killed while in the process of trying to kill her own child I might be sad but at the same time I would be madder than hell that they killed their own child.
 
jamesrage said:
Abortion is not illegal in Brazil. Brazil has a health and rape exceptions and I am pretty sure those exceptions are abused. Nor can you compare a country like Brazil with a lousy law enforcement and rampant corruption to a country like the US.

Summary of Abortion Laws Around the World

World Abortion Law Map

Brazil Corruption Gets Better. Country as Corrupt as Colombia Now




To a prolifer the lets keep abortion legal so it is safe for a mother to kill her children is a idiotic reason to keep abortion legal. Its like saying lets have tax payers provide bullet proof vests to potential violent criminals to keep them safe while robbing a home, trying to kill someone and etc.


None.


I am happy to see anyone die for attempting to their child. Just as I would any other attempted murder, bank robber, car theif, attempted rapist gets killed in the process of committing a crime.



If a relative or friend of mine did get killed while in the process of trying to kill her own child I might be sad but at the same time I would be madder than hell that they killed their own child.
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What this all comes down to is that you see a woman who have abortion as "violent criminal", so you see nothing wrong with taking away their rights as we do to criminals. If you were honest (with yourself) you would realise there are rights invloved. The supreme court was right in that. Where you can argue is whether the state has enough interest in looking after the foetus to violate the rights of the women.
 
Duplicate.
 
nonpareil said:
What this all comes down to is that you see a woman who have abortion as "violent criminal",
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A woman trying to kill her own child is pretty violent in my book.

so you see nothing wrong with taking away their rights as we do to criminals. If you were honest (with yourself) you would realise there are rights invloved. The supreme court was right in that. Where you can argue is whether the state has enough interest in looking after the foetus to violate the rights of the women.
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There is nothing in the constitution that says abortion is a right. If you wish for abortion to be a right then petition your elected officials to go through the amendment process.
 
jamesrage said:
A woman trying to kill her own child is pretty violent in my book.


There is nothing in the constitution that says abortion is a right. If you wish for abortion to be a right then petition your elected officials to go through the amendment process.
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No abortion isn't a right, but neither do the constitution say that I have a right to flap my lips and make noise. Instead it guarantees my rights to free speech as well as privacy, both of which I need to protect me when I say something or get a medical procedure which other people find objectionable.
 
jamesrage said:
There is nothing in the constitution that says abortion is a right. If you wish for abortion to be a right then petition your elected officials to go through the amendment process.
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Sorry that I have been gone for the last couple of days. Got sick :p .

Anyways, there is nothing in the Constitution which forbids it either. As such a "right" to an abortion could concievablely (and more than likely would) fall under the 10th Amendment. Which is why I believe that SheWolf said that it would just end up being a states issue if Roe v Wade was overturned. The only way for you to totally outlaw abortion across the whole of the US would be to add an amendment to the Constitution. And that is where our arguements actually differ. You're way would require an Amendment to the Constitution. Our way could simply fall...at the very least...down to the 10th Amendment and be decided under States Legislatures, assuming of course if Wade v Roe were overturned.
 
nonpareil said:
No abortion isn't a right, but neither do the constitution say that I have a right to flap my lips and make noise. Instead it guarantees my rights to free speech as well as privacy, both of which I need to protect me when I say something or get a medical procedure which other people find objectionable.
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Laws against abortion do not violate the 4th amendment or the 1st amendment.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Sorry that I have been gone for the last couple of days. Got sick :p .

Anyways, there is nothing in the Constitution which forbids it either.
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Since there is nothing in the constitution that says anything about abortion then the federal government can ban abortion.
 
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