View Poll Results: Are you against or not against the following?

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  • I am against both TSA Body Scanners and Abortion.

    15 24.19%
  • I am againt TSA Body Scanners but am not against Abortion.

    15 24.19%
  • I am not against both TSA Body Scanners and Abortion.

    27 43.55%
  • I am not against TSA Body Scanners but am against Abortion.

    5 8.06%
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Thread: Against/not against.

  1. #31
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    There is no constitutional right to abortion.Banning abortion does not require you peek in medical records, so the SC messed up royally in their ruling. So it is totally absurd to even compare a non-right like abortion to something that is a violation of the constitution like full body scanners at airports.
    Proving you were raped or that your life is at risk... and absolutely at risk, not just your health and safety.. does require the government peeking into your medical records. Some people in the government are even trying to define rape and force, and what is the difference between a health risk and life risk, so yeah... there is going to be government intrustion in your life, women's healthcare, and in court records...

  2. #32
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No it wouldn't. Just like cops do John Stings, fake drug deals and Bait cars they can catch those attempting to perform an abortion or those seeking an abortion,these stings could lead to getting a search warrant to look at records to lead to not only a conviction for an attempted abortion but also for abortions performed assuming the abortion provider is stupid enough to have a record. These things do not violate the 4th amendment. Some concerned private citizen could provide a video tape to the police or statements that someone is performing abortion. If a woman who was pregnant is suddenly no longer pregnant then there would be probably cause to suspect that she did something to cause her pregnancy to be terminated. These things do not require peeking into medical records. Banning abortion does not in any shape or form violate the 4th amendment, nor is there a constitutional right to abortion. Again the SC blatantly screwed up.
    Or you can advocate what they do in South America... just wait for the women come into the ER bleeding to death, and give the doctors and staff legal protections to watch them die.

    No offense... but all this is why I am against criminalizing abortion. Making it illegal doesn't solve anything, it just creates a different problem.

  3. #33
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    How would a sting operation be set up without leading to entrapment? And as you say someone performing abortions would have to be stupid by keeping documents of such procedures around so at most you could only get a doctor for that one attempt. Again, assuming you have a way to do the sting without leading to getting the case and all evidence obtained thrown out due to entrapment laws.

    As for getting the women that get the procedure done...well that would be next to impossible. While I would imagine that could be determined via an examination you would have to get a warrant in order to get that examination done, even then I would imagine that there would be a time stamp in how long such an examination could be done in order to detect anything. Problem here is that you would have to have compelling evidence that something illegal was done. Such evidence would be hard...if not impossible to get as the woman could very well have just had a miscarriage. Assumptions would not procure a warrant so the only way to get a warrant is if a sting operation was completed successfully and the abortion doctor kept records and done in such a way as to not get in trouble with entrapment laws. Your concerned citizen would not be enough as there still has to be physical evidence that something illegal was being done. While the video would be enough...what doctor (even the stupid ones that kept records) would allow such a video to take place while performing the abortion...much less allowing anyone other than the woman wanting the abortion inside the room while the operation was taking place. Assuming that the woman would bring someone along with her in the first place that she didn't completely and utterly trust.

    In essence, at some point in the procedure, you would have to violate the 4th amendment in order to get evidence that something illegal was being done.
    Abortion used to be illegal of course... and all those things were done, and look where we are now... lol. I watched a documentary about women who had abortions when it was illegal. If they developed an infection, they'd go to the hospital or to a clinic. If the staff knew what it was from, some of them would try to get the women to talk. If the women refused to talk... nothing was done. They were just treated horribly by some of the staff. Other people on the staff supported abortion rights and tried to help the women suffering infections, and then the abortion ring would grow and grow.

    Now of course... we have non surgical abortions... like the pill, and that will just cause a miscarriage.

  4. #34
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post

    If a perfectly healthy pregnant woman was suddenly not pregnant and someone reported that she had an abortion it would be good enough to have reasonable cause that she did something illegal.
    Perfectly healthy women have miscarriages!

    And lots of pregnant women and girls have early term abortions before there is any sign they are pregnant... so unless you're going to do womb checks, you really can't monitor the unborn population

  5. #35
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post

    Checking out a perfectly healthy woman who was pregnant but for some mysterious reason is longer pregnant the is no more a violation of the 4th than searching a junky's pockets was caught taking drugs.
    Asking somebody to remove everything fome their pockets is A LOT different than checking to see if a woman is still pregnant or had a natural miscarriage... After you give birth or have a miscarriage the stomach is still swollen, and after birth, miscarriage, and abortion a simple pregnancy test will still read positive... because it takes a while for the hormone levels in the body to go back down. It would require an ultrasound.. more specifically a vagina ultrasound (putting a wand up your yoohoo) to comb over all the evidence. Vagina ultrasounds are really common, especially when the doc is trying TO FIND the embyro because all are not in the place inside the womb.

    I'd say that is very intrustive... Some women and girl's are really particular about who is going to do those exams on them, and you want it enforced on them by the law. I am completely uncomfortable with this... it would be way too intrustive, moreso than the TSA scans and if the government abused such athority... OMG. Disgusting! It's not even worth the hassel or the risk. We are talking about young girls in some cases...

  6. #36
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    Re: Against/not against.

    I'm indifferent about body scanners. However I am strongly against abortion.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Or you can advocate what they do in South America... just wait for the women come into the ER bleeding to death, and give the doctors and staff legal protections to watch them die.
    The lets keep it legal and safe for a woman to kill her unborn child is a idiotic argument that only abortionist use. As a pro-lifer/anti-abortionist the last thing I want is for it to be safe and legal for someone to kill their unborn child.



    No offense... but all this is why I am against criminalizing abortion. Making it illegal doesn't solve anything, it just creates a different problem.
    I strongly disagree. It would make it hard for a woman to kill her unborn child.


    Proving you were raped
    You can't prove rape with medical tests. And if the law did make a rape exception an abortion should be allowed after someone has been convicted of rape. Besides that I do not think there should be an abortion exception for rape, don't punish the child for the actions of his or her father.

    or that your life is at risk... and absolutely at risk, not just your health and safety.. does require the government peeking into your medical records.
    No it wouldn't. You make abortions only legal in hospitals and every now and then send in a pregnant under cover to try to get an abortion with no life threatening condition to catch doctors trying to administer unauthorized abortions.


    Perfectly healthy women have miscarriages!

    And lots of pregnant women and girls have early term abortions before there is any sign they are pregnant... so unless you're going to do womb checks, you really can't monitor the unborn population
    I realize that we can't catch those who have early term abortions,unless an abortion provider was stupid enough to keep records or if there was a concerned citizen video taping the abortion.


    Making abortion illegal does not in any shape or form violate the 4th amendment. cops do not need to violate the 4th amendment to catch drug dealers, bust meth labs and other criminals.Making abortion illegal would be no different than catching other criminals.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Kal, although I agree a creative way to look at the parallels, I'm not in agreement that your argument holds any weight in practical terms. In Roe v. Wade, the right to determine was indeed an interpretation on privacy rights, and providing a rationale basis test. The SCOTUS essentially codified what was "reasonable", finding, although arguably, a compromise with respect to right to privacy, and that of reasonable state interest. Conversly, body scans are interpreted much the same way. Is it unreasonable to search, irrespective of privacy, someone's body at an airport? Using the same scrutiny, one would argue that it is most certainly reasonable; therefore, it is reasonable to be against abortion, and yet, also be for, or in support of, body scans.

    Side note: I'm somewhat embarrassed that I did not sniff this one out.. Kudos..


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  9. #39
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    Re: Against/not against.

    I voted other.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The lets keep it legal and safe for a woman to kill her unborn child is a idiotic argument that only abortionist use. As a pro-lifer/anti-abortionist the last thing I want is for it to be safe and legal for someone to kill their unborn child.

    I strongly disagree. It would make it hard for a woman to kill her unborn child.
    Make it harder... maybe, stop females stop doing it altogether, no.

    You act like nobody would go to a foreign country or take an abortion pill. You act like everybody is going to try to get an illegal abortion at a legitimate hospital, and that's not what happened before RvW. Abortions were preformed in homes and in hotel rooms... sometimes in makeshift clinics, but rarely in hospitals and with clean medical equipment.

    Right now, there are boats that go to some countries and pick up females who want abortions, and then preform the abortions legally, in international waters... lol

    But if you just overturn RvW, it will just back to the states... so then these females would go to other states, not exactly leave the country or have to go into international waters.

    You can't prove rape with medical tests. And if the law did make a rape exception an abortion should be allowed after someone has been convicted of rape. Besides that I do not think there should be an abortion exception for rape, don't punish the child for the actions of his or her father.
    After the conviction... you know how long a conviction might take? You could just allow her to abort a 4 week old embryo, but no... wait until he is convicted and it's a 4 to 6 month old fetus

    No it wouldn't. You make abortions only legal in hospitals and every now and then send in a pregnant under cover to try to get an abortion with no life threatening condition to catch doctors trying to administer unauthorized abortions.
    No offensive, but this is a ridiculous idea...

    I realize that we can't catch those who have early term abortions,unless an abortion provider was stupid enough to keep records or if there was a concerned citizen video taping the abortion.
    Every patient omitted to a hospital requires a record, and every surgery requires a staff of people administering medications and checking the patient's records.. which is another reason why you're ridiculous for thinking doctors would accept patients who come in and ask for an illegal abortion.

    They'd easily get caught, and it wouldn't even take an undercover cop... it would just take a nurse or an assistant asking where her records are, who preformed the ultrasound, where is the ultrasound photo? Why wasn't the abortion entered in her medical records?
    Last edited by SheWolf; 02-14-11 at 05:06 PM.

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