View Poll Results: Are you against or not against the following?

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  • I am against both TSA Body Scanners and Abortion.

    15 24.19%
  • I am againt TSA Body Scanners but am not against Abortion.

    15 24.19%
  • I am not against both TSA Body Scanners and Abortion.

    27 43.55%
  • I am not against TSA Body Scanners but am against Abortion.

    5 8.06%
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Thread: Against/not against.

  1. #21
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This will be an open poll. That way we can just discard all anonymous votes.

    One question, two subjects.

    1: Are you against/not against TSA body scanners?
    After the first trimester, yes, a woman should have a medical need to be body scanned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    2: Are you against/not against abortion?
    I think abortion unnecessarily exposes the general public to abuse and does little if anything to curb terrorism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    There will be no "other" option as quite frankly I don't care about "other" options. This thread is not about "other" options.
    I love you.

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    Re: Against/not against.

    Ridiculous, one has nothing to do with the other, so no vote...
    If a correlation can be established, let me know.

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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This post brings to light what the premise is of this thread. And I will admit, as CC said, it is a bit of a stretch.

    In Roe vs Wade anti-abortion laws were considered to be unconstitutional for privacy reasons. IE it violated the 4th amendment. Which is actually understandable when you consider that a persons medical records, be they physical or mental are considered to be damn near sancrosanct even to the point of doctors being barred from telling police about illegals that come into thier hospitals. The only way for police to access medical records is via a warrant. As far as I know not even the Patriot Act violated that part of our laws.

    Now I'm sure that people will say that this right shouldn't apply because we're talking about an innocent life here. But honestly why shouldn't it? The very fundamental principle of the US is individual freedoms. That everyone, regardless of belief system, has an inalienable right, and that the majority should not be able to take that right away, unless there are lives at steak. Which of course for those that are anti-abortion is the very fundemental reason to be anti-abortion.

    But then here comes the TSA and body scanners. They wish to put these body scanners into place in order to attempt to save innocent life. When all is said and done the TSA's goal is very similiar to that of an anti-abortionist. Only real difference is that of age. Yet here the innocent life on a plane is apparently less than that of a baby in the womb (ironically there are unborn babies in wombs aplenty on a plane also). Because here people holler about 4th amendment violations. Now people will no doubt try to draw comparisons between the amount of innocent life taken vs innocent life taken between the two. Problem here is that in order to be consistant every life should be valued just as equally as the next, irregardless of circumstances or amounts.

    So when all is boiled down and consistant, you have two very different situations. Both of them are about a right to privacy. Yet as Jamesrage has evidenced here, there are contradictions between the two.

    Note to Jamesrage: Sorry james, but you did fall neatly into the trap I placed.
    I agree with Viktyr Korimir: we should just give every unborn a box cutter and accept the fact that were gona lose a woman now and then.

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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I don't have an issue with either one, but it's early and I'm not awake yet, so I voted wrong.
    I still have no idea what this thread is about. I looked at the poll options and was like "anti-body-scan + anti-abortion, that's me".

  5. #25
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Entrapment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation).
    First there really wasn't a need to post this twice.

    All that a doctor would need to do is appear reluctant to the idea. If the woman persisted and he "gave in" he could go on record as being pressured into it. Which would then constitute entrapment.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No more impossible that catching people trying to sell or buy drugs or someone trying to solicit the services of a prostitute or something else illegal.
    Really? Do explain how this would be done please.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If a perfectly healthy pregnant woman was suddenly not pregnant and someone reported that she had an abortion it would be good enough to have reasonable cause that she did something illegal.
    Even the most healthy of women can have a miscarriage. (heck a simple herbal drink can make a woman miscarry) Scientists are by no means 100% positive about what all causes miscarriages. You're right though. All it takes for a warrant to be issued is probable cause. Which I suppose someone calling in could give. There is however a problem with this. How many people would use such an easily available system of griefing? How many pissed off ex-boyfriends, jealous women, pissed off co-workers would use such a system to embarress and hurt someone? How many peoples 4th amendment rights is it ok to violate just to make sure that they didn't have an abortion performed? Irregardless if they were actually pregnant or not or just had a simple miscarriage? Those peoples rights would be violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Citizens report crimes all the time and police check them out, why would an abortions be any different if they became illegal?
    Read above. Considering what I just said I would imagine that the requirements to get such a warrant for a "possible" abortion case would have to be tighter than that of a normal warrant. And even then there is no gauruntee that the tests would detect that an abortion was induced as there are many many ways in which to induce an abortion. Not all of them detectable. Another reason to require more than just one persons anonymous phone call to get such a warrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I am sure that the same thing was said about other criminals. However people are caught on camera committing crimes.
    It is far easier to catch someone that is doing drugs than it is to catch a woman getting an abortion done on video.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No you wouldn't. Anti-abortion laws can be upheld with sting operations and citizens reporting criminal activities much the same way police do not have to kick down your door to see if you have a meth lab or growing pot. Your it violates the 4th amendment doesn't hold water.
    Sting operations would be far less effective on a doctor than it is a druggy. OH sure you might get a few. But not near as many I think you think would be caught. As for citizens reporting criminal activity...read above. Also consider how many people there are that DON'T report crimes in progress...much less one that they are not even sure is happening as would have to be the case in an abortion case (again, assuming that the citizen doing the reporting is doing so honestly).
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  6. #26
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Ridiculous, one has nothing to do with the other, so no vote...
    If a correlation can be established, let me know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I still have no idea what this thread is about. I looked at the poll options and was like "anti-body-scan + anti-abortion, that's me".
    Read Post #11 please.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This post brings to light what the premise is of this thread. And I will admit, as CC said, it is a bit of a stretch.

    In Roe vs Wade anti-abortion laws were considered to be unconstitutional for privacy reasons. IE it violated the 4th amendment. Which is actually understandable when you consider that a persons medical records, be they physical or mental are considered to be damn near sancrosanct even to the point of doctors being barred from telling police about illegals that come into thier hospitals. The only way for police to access medical records is via a warrant. As far as I know not even the Patriot Act violated that part of our laws.

    Now I'm sure that people will say that this right shouldn't apply because we're talking about an innocent life here. But honestly why shouldn't it? The very fundamental principle of the US is individual freedoms. That everyone, regardless of belief system, has an inalienable right, and that the majority should not be able to take that right away, unless there are lives at steak. Which of course for those that are anti-abortion is the very fundemental reason to be anti-abortion.

    But then here comes the TSA and body scanners. They wish to put these body scanners into place in order to attempt to save innocent life. When all is said and done the TSA's goal is very similiar to that of an anti-abortionist. Only real difference is that of age. Yet here the innocent life on a plane is apparently less than that of a baby in the womb (ironically there are unborn babies in wombs aplenty on a plane also). Because here people holler about 4th amendment violations. Now people will no doubt try to draw comparisons between the amount of innocent life taken vs innocent life taken between the two. Problem here is that in order to be consistant every life should be valued just as equally as the next, irregardless of circumstances or amounts.

    So when all is boiled down and consistant, you have two very different situations. Both of them are about a right to privacy. Yet as Jamesrage has evidenced here, there are contradictions between the two.

    Note to Jamesrage: Sorry james, but you did fall neatly into the trap I placed.
    So, do you support abolishing all speed limits across the country? If you don't, you can't call yourself pro-choice or can we agree that details matter and that different thing are, well, different?
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  8. #28
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    First there really wasn't a need to post this twice.

    All that a doctor would need to do is appear reluctant to the idea. If the woman persisted and he "gave in" he could go on record as being pressured into it. Which would then constitute entrapment.
    Its no more entrapment than a bait car, John Sting or a bogus drug deal.


    Really? Do explain how this would be done please.
    Set up fake abortion clinics or providers to catch women attempting to have abortions and have pregnant female cops try solicit abortion providers.


    Even the most healthy of women can have a miscarriage. (heck a simple herbal drink can make a woman miscarry) Scientists are by no means 100% positive about what all causes miscarriages. You're right though. All it takes for a warrant to be issued is probable cause. Which I suppose someone calling in could give. There is however a problem with this. How many people would use such an easily available system of griefing? How many pissed off ex-boyfriends, jealous women, pissed off co-workers would use such a system to embarress and hurt someone? How many peoples 4th amendment rights is it ok to violate just to make sure that they didn't have an abortion performed? Irregardless if they were actually pregnant or not or just had a simple miscarriage? Those peoples rights would be violated.
    Checking out a perfectly healthy woman who was pregnant but for some mysterious reason is longer pregnant the is no more a violation of the 4th than searching a junky's pockets was caught taking drugs.


    It is far easier to catch someone that is doing drugs than it is to catch a woman getting an abortion done on video.
    Statistically almost half of those who had abortions are repeat costumers and even those who are at most had one previous abortion. So its not like an abortion provider can know if he has a real costumer or a undercover. Nor can a woman really know if she is going to a real abortion clinic or if she is walking into a set up. And eventually a under ground provider will get caught.


    Abortion Statistics
    47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

    Sting operations would be far less effective on a doctor than it is a druggy. OH sure you might get a few. But not near as many I think you think would be caught.

    As for citizens reporting criminal activity...read above. Also consider how many people there are that DON'T report crimes in progress...much less one that they are not even sure is happening as would have to be the case in an abortion case (again, assuming that the citizen doing the reporting is doing so honestly).
    You don't have to catch them all. Just enough to discourage the other providers and women seeking abortion.


    The idea that abortion is legal because banning abortion would violate the 4th amendment is idiotic.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 02-13-11 at 02:23 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  9. #29
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Read Post #11 please.
    I did before I posted, still no idea wtf any of you are talking about.

  10. #30
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    Re: Against/not against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This will be an open poll. That way we can just discard all anonymous votes.

    One question, two subjects.

    1: Are you against/not against TSA body scanners?

    2: Are you against/not against abortion?

    Why?

    There will be no "other" option as quite frankly I don't care about "other" options. This thread is not about "other" options.
    I voted wrong...

    I should have read more carefully..

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