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Does Same Sex Marriage promote family?

Yes or No?

  • Total voters
    58
Jerry said:
I think I've don nothing but condemn divorce on this thread.

The only 'out' Jesus, whom you quote, gives to marriage other than death is marital unfaithfulness. If one spouse cheats on the other and then the other seeks a divorce, who 'caused' them to separate?

The legal divorce was reactionary to an initial breach of contract by the other spouse.

The guilt of the divorce falls on the one who caused it, not necessarily the one who filed the paperwork. The one who files the paperwork can be every bit the victim.
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But can they be Christian and divorce? You claim that homosexual couples cannot be Christians. Can divorcees?
 
Jerry said:
Well it follows that a couple who choose to live a hypocritical life by claiming to live by God's law while violating that law would seek out like-minded hypocrites who filed some paperwork and opened a church. Birds of a feather, and all.
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"But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” —1 Samuel 16:7

Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God. —Romans 15:7

What about what is in the heart being more important? Seems the lord is pretty clear that he looks within and not just as a man sees a person...
 
Your Star said:
And why exactly is your version of God's law right, and mine not? Did he personally speak to you?
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I think the key diference between you and I is that you have your own versions of institutions, where as I conform to the institution.

I don't have a version of God's law, God's law has a version of a subject; me.
 
Andalublue said:
But can they be Christian and divorce?
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Guilt of sin does not excommunicate a person, but that person is still guilty of sin non the less.

Andalublue said:
You claim that homosexual couples cannot be Christians.
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I said that a gay couple who chose to subjugate themselves to Christian doctrine must part ways in due coarse of obeying that doctrine. If they are both Christians and a couple, they are hypocrites, but they are still both Christians and a couple.

Andalublue said:
Can divorcees?
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Absolutely. Guilt of sin does not excommunicate you, it simply makes you guilty of sin; a hypocrite.

The person who is at fault for the divorce bears the guilt whether or not they're the spouse who filed the paperwork.
 
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Bodhisattva said:
"But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” —1 Samuel 16:7

Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God. —Romans 15:7

What about what is in the heart being more important? Seems the lord is pretty clear that he looks within and not just as a man sees a person...
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The Lord forbids same-sex relations, also. We can't cherry-pick which laws to follow.
 
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Jerry said:
Guilt of sin does not excommunicate a person, but that person is still guilty of sin non the less.



I said that a gay couple who chose to subjugate themselves to Christian doctrine must part ways in due coarse of obeying that doctrine. If they are both Christians and a couple, they are hypocrites, but they are still both Christians and a couple.



Absolutely. Guilt of sin does not excommunicate you, it simply makes you guilty of sin; a hypocrite.

The person who is at fault for the divorce bears the guilt whether or not they're the spouse who filed the paperwork.
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Okay. That's clear.
 
Jerry said:
The Lord forbids same-sex relations, also. We can't cherry-pick which laws to follow.
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Then at best, you have contradictory Scripture in which you are following...
 
Jerry said:
The Lord forbids same-sex relations, also. We can't cherry-pick which laws to follow.
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But you do, all the time. There are literally thousands of behaviours mentioned in the Bible as 'abominable' or 'sinful' that Christians commit every day without thinking. Eating pork comes to mind, but the list is extensive, and Christians pick'n'choose and fix on just a few, like homosexuality, to hold up as the 'biggies', mostly due to sublimated homoeroticism imho. Now THAT'S hypocrisy.
 
Jerry said:
I think the key diference between you and I is that you have your own versions of institutions, where as I conform to the institution.

I don't have a version of God's law, God's law has a version of a subject; me.
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You have an interpretation of what God's law is, whether you willing want to see it or not. Others have another interpretation of what that law is. Unless you have directly talked to God, and He told you, directly, not through the Bible or anyone else, that marriage is only between one man and one woman then you really don't know if what you believe is true or not. Telling others that their interpretation is wrong is a statement of your own beliefs, but isn't necessarily what God wants.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Then at best, you have contradictory Scripture in which you are following...
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Well yeah when you keep taking scripture out of context like you did you can make it say anything. I mean I could even jump back with the same passage and say "yes God judges what's in their heart, and he judged their heart as sinful and thus banned same-sex relations".
 
Andalublue said:
But you do, all the time. There are literally thousands of behaviours mentioned in the Bible as 'abominable' or 'sinful' that Christians commit every day without thinking. Eating pork comes to mind, but the list is extensive, and Christians pick'n'choose and fix on just a few, like homosexuality, to hold up as the 'biggies', mostly due to sublimated homoeroticism imho. Now THAT'S hypocrisy.
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So you're saying Christians should accept gays because gays also hypocrites?

That doesn't speak very well of gays.

We Christians openly admit that we are guilty of sin, we are all, every one of us, hypocrites. The difference is not what we are today, but the change we're trying to make. We are repentant. We don't want to sin, we don't want to be hypocrites. In becoming a Christin a gay couple would join us in rejecting sin, which means they would have to reject their marriage.

Accepting SSM in the church means accepting sin. This is no different than accepting fraud or a diet rich in purines.
 
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Jerry said:
So you're saying Christians should accept gays because they're also hypocrites?
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No, I'm saying that Christians place interpretations on scripture every day. They go against scriptural commands all the time but choose to discount their behaviour as sinful. When was the last time you prayed for forgiveness for eating pork or for mixing fibres in your garments? The prohibition on homosexuality is significantly less explicit than the scriptures referring to the two previous 'sins', so why is homosexuality such a big deal? Clearly you do not view many scriptural sins as sins. Why the pick'n'choose attitude?
 
roguenuke said:
You have an interpretation of what God's law is, whether you willing want to see it or not. Others have another interpretation of what that law is. Unless you have directly talked to God, and He told you, directly, not through the Bible or anyone else, that marriage is only between one man and one woman then you really don't know if what you believe is true or not. Telling others that their interpretation is wrong is a statement of your own beliefs, but isn't necessarily what God wants.
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One benefit of joining an institution instead of having an independent 'version' of that institution is that my identity is only invalidated through that institution, not by a quickly post by a random anon in an internet discussion forum. You can try to tell me what I am all you want. All you accomplish is telling me how you interpret me.

Once again you've made your version of what someone, I, wrote. I accept that, it's who you are, not good or bad it's just a difference.

All I can do is reiterate that I don't have 'versions'.
 
Andalublue said:
No, I'm saying that Christians place interpretations on scripture every day. They go against scriptural commands all the time but choose to discount their behaviour as sinful.
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You're saying that a sinner....sins....I don't see anything I would disagree with there. Try as we might, sometimes we fail. Jesus forgives our failure as long as we keep up the effort with the intent to change.

Like a child who's trying to do a chore but isn't any good at it. As a parent you forgive how the actual result as long as they''re making every effort to do it right. Hell even my Drill Sergeants had a point where the yelling stopped and the instruction began as long as we were 'motivated'.

Andalublue said:
When was the last time you prayed for forgiveness for eating pork or for mixing fibres in your garments?
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I don't eat pork and I don't commit fraud. I do, however, pray for the sins I do commit.

Andalublue said:
The prohibition on homosexuality is significantly less explicit than the scriptures referring to the two previous 'sins', so why is homosexuality such a big deal? Clearly you do not view many scriptural sins as sins. Why the pick'n'choose attitude?
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I am like the repentant gay man who struggles against his sexual urges for the sake of a higher purpose.
 
Jerry said:
I think the key diference between you and I is that you have your own versions of institutions, where as I conform to the institution.

I don't have a version of God's law, God's law has a version of a subject; me.
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Who says the institution is right? Clearly the Church over the centuries have used what "God" says to their own benefit, remember indulgences.
 
Jerry said:
But gays were a party to the change. See no one is going to tell me what a woman means to me. Not society or anyone else. Only I could know that so only I will define it. You say that gays have already let others tell them how they feel, so why then crumb on me when I appear to do the same? Why don't you keep the tradition of your gay for-fathers and adjust your vocabulary to meet the demands I impose on you?
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You act like LGBT people have these grand meetings, and conferences where we decide these things. The use of the word partner to describe LGBT couples is something that just happened. Do I use those terms no, is it a good argument against SSM? No. If your using LGBT people using the term partner as an argument against SSM, well, then you clearly lose.



Just as a given marriage does not exist in a vacuum and affects and is affected by the rest of the world. I agree.
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And SSM would only strengthen marriage.

Because that's what gays define themselves as.
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Not this lesbian.

How do the actions of gays contribute to the divorce rate today: Some gays will live a lie, get married, have children, and later divorce.
Prisons Minister Crispin Blunt MP Says He's Gay And Leaving Wife
Crispin Blunt announces he is gay and has left his wife | Mail Online

How gays could contribute to the divorce rate when SSM is legalized is easy: You're just like us, remember? You will marry to young. You will choose the wrong person. One of you will become religious or loose the faith. You will marry cross-culture. You will marry cross-race. Some of you will commit felonies and be divorced. Some of you will serve openly in the military and come home to find your same-sex spouse has been cheating on you. Some of you will be in abusive relationships. But most of all, you will fight about money, just like everyone else. If gays are just like heteros, then as heteros have a 50% divorce rate, so will gays have a 50% divorce rate.
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But none of that is increasing the divorce rate, it will increase the number of divorces, if everything stays equal, but that is just due to the greater number of marriage. Again, this is not a strong argument against SSM, and you lose this one.
 
Your Star said:
Who says the institution is right?
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I concurred, hence I joined it.

You say it's wrong, hence you reject it.

What I use to validate my identity is as strong to me as what you use to validate your identity is to you. Just as I allowed the Lord to define me, so do you allow society to define you. You're used to being able to help define others just as they define you, so it follows that you would have assumed that you could define me. But I don't use others. I use the Lord. You're not the Lord, so you can't tell me what I am.

Likewise, I don't try to tell you what you are, though you will think so because you're used to others defining you. I can tell you where your actions stand with the Lord, but only He can speak to you with real authority.


Your Star said:
Clearly the Church over the centuries have used what "God" says to their own benefit, remember indulgences.
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Wow, sinners sinning, who could have predicted this?
 
Jerry said:
Well yeah when you keep taking scripture out of context like you did you can make it say anything. I mean I could even jump back with the same passage and say "yes God judges what's in their heart, and he judged their heart as sinful and thus banned same-sex relations".
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What is in their hearts is almost universally regarding as to what kind of caring and compassionate person the individual is, not who they want to have sex with. Seriously, that is ridiculous. Anything else?
 
Your Star said:
But none of that is increasing the divorce rate, it will increase the number of divorces, if everything stays equal, but that is just due to the greater number of marriage. Again, this is not a strong argument against SSM, and you lose this one.
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'Gays will have a 50% divorce rate' doesn't motivate me to picket with you. The promise of hot-wings will meet a better result.
 
Jerry said:
One benefit of joining an institution instead of having an independent 'version' of that institution is that my identity is only invalidated through that institution, not by a quickly post by a random anon in an internet discussion forum. You can try to tell me what I am all you want. All you accomplish is telling me how you interpret me.

Once again you've made your version of what someone, I, wrote. I accept that, it's who you are, not good or bad it's just a difference.

All I can do is reiterate that I don't have 'versions'.
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One benefit of having an independent 'version' of that institution instead of joining the institution is that there remains an openness to things like messages and scripture instead of being told what to believe and who to condemn.
 
Jerry said:
'Gays will have a 50% divorce rate' doesn't motivate me to picket with you. The promise of hot-wings will meet a better result.
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So equality doesn't matter to you?
 
Bodhisattva said:
What is in their hearts is almost universally regarding as to what kind of caring and compassionate person the individual is, not who they want to have sex with. Seriously, that is ridiculous. Anything else?
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I let the Lord make His own judgments of people's hearts.

I'm only concerned with behavior and how the behavior of others affects me.

Please excuse me for answering purely academic questions about my faith.
 
Jerry said:
You're saying that a sinner....sins....I don't see anything I would disagree with there.
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You know perfectly well, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that you choose to discount sins, to deny that certain behaviour which is scripturally prohibited IS prohibited, because it suits you to. You do not acknowledge these 'sins', you do not ask forgiveness for committing them and you make no effort not to commit them again. You may tell me that you do, but given the many thousands that exist within the pages of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, I am proposing that you do not. You pick and choose. I know many, many Christians that struggle with this dilemma. It seems to make them a little more humble. Perhaps you don't struggle.
 
Jerry said:
I concurred, hence I joined it.

You say it's wrong, hence you reject it.

What I use to validate my identity is as strong to me as what you use to validate your identity is to you. Just as I allowed the Lord to define me, so do you allow society to define you. You're used to being able to help define others just as they define you, so it follows that you would have assumed that you could define me. But I don't use others. I use the Lord. You're not the Lord, so you can't tell me what I am.

Likewise, I don't try to tell you what you are, though you will think so because you're used to others defining you. I can tell you where your actions stand with the Lord, but only He can speak to you with real authority.
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I haven't allowed society to define me, I have defined myself, and my relationship with God is apart of that. And I believe that who I am, that the way I was born, isn't wrong.
 
Your Star said:
So equality doesn't matter to you?
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"Equality" has been turned into a political buzz-word with a lot of sub-text, so as a political buzz-word, no Equality™ doesn't matter to me. Not at all.

Marriage is not about Equality™. Marriage is about the raising and socializing of children. Everything else a marriage does serves that purpose. If you're not raising children, you have no business being married whether your gay or not. If you are raising a child, then perhaps the argument can be made that the sin of your homosexuality is justified through serving a higher purpose.

If you're not raising a child then your relationship doesn't affect me and your actions are between you and God alone.


***
It may surprise you that I strongly support gays serving openly in the military. Non of my support comes from a notion of equality, however. Just as marriage is not about equality, neither is the military about equality. The military is about defending the nation's interests, and it is my opinion that the military is harmed when it alienates the pool of talent in homosexuals.
 
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