View Poll Results: Are These Additional Restrictions on Abortion Funding Going Too Far?

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  • Yes, this goes too far

    16 50.00%
  • No, this is perfectly reasonable

    11 34.38%
  • Other

    5 15.63%
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Thread: Is This Going Too Far?

  1. #441
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
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  2. #442
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post

    Gosh, my leg's all a'tingle now. Just call me olberman
    Not to nitpick (well, ok, maybe a bit), but it's Chris Matthews with the thrill up his leg, not Olbermann.
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  3. #443
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I don't believe that at all. We have hetero couples trotting the globe looking for children to adopt. Just why would that be if we had an adequate number of children to adopt right here?
    You dont have to believe it but it just goes to show how very little you know about the subject, there is an ABUNDANCE of kids here that never get adopted and those are the facts.
    Last edited by AGENT J; 01-29-11 at 08:54 PM.
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  4. #444
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Bah, I just hate it when I don't see a thread topic about which I have strong opinions until it's 15 pages in. By that time, all valid points have been made, all invalid points have been shredded, everyone I want to argue with is already arguing with someone else and the thread is usually irreparably hijacked.

    I'm still going shove my opinion into the mix. Yes, I think that adding "forcible" to "rape" is going much too far, for reasons I'm sure have already been covered, but I'm going to re-cover 'em! As already noted in the OP, the term "forcible" is a fluid one, which doesn't lend itself to a concrete oranges-or-apples definition. Statuatory rape is not considered to be "forcible", even if the "consenting" child is 12 and the person she had sex with is 20-30 years old. So potentially with this new, improved definition, a 12-yr-old girl from a poor family could be forced to give birth despite the fact that she was legally unable to give consent and was, under the law, raped.

    Now we come to date rape. (No, it's not limited to promiscuous, bar-hoppers with morning-after remorse.) Most date rapes occur in high school and college. Most victims are vulnerable adolescents who do not yet have the experience to size up potentially dangerous situations... i.e. getting crazy drunk at a frat party, then trying to weakly fend off an equally drunken kid(s) who will not take "no" for an answer. Was she raped? Yeah. She said "no", and she was legally impaired, unable to give consent. These things never go well for the female, since both were drunk and it's he-said, she-said, so there's no chance of a prosecution. If she becomes pregnant, she has no way of proving she was forced.

    High school kids end up in the same situation. Dewy-eyed girl accepts date with the school heartthrob, only to find herself pinned in the front seat and overpowered. Again, he-said she-said date rape, impossible to prosecute, impossible to prove.

    The fact is that unless a woman has been visibly beaten, and badly so, she has almost no legal way of proving she was forced, since the male will insist she consented, and reasonable doubt is born. So by simply adding the word "forcible", all of these scenarios would be automatically exempted from abortion funding.

    As for the "morning after" pill, most rape victims will use this if it's available. Thing is, it's only available through prescription, which means the cost of a doctor visit AND the cost of the medication. Many young victims simply cannot afford this. If they report the rape, the hospital will provide the pill for them... but this means the female will be subjected to embarrassing police questions, the accused will be questioned as well, everyone in the school/college will know what happened, the D.A. will eventually decline to prosecute, and the female will be left with the option of facing the wrath of the accused and his friends, or dropping out of school

    I detailed all these scenarios to show why most rapes aren't even reported, and why "forcible" rape is an impossible standard to prove unless the woman has been beaten within an inch of her life. Rape is traumatizing to women. I don't think a lot of men get this. Being impregnated during a rape is enough to drive some women to despair. There should never, ever be a legal impediment to providing a raped woman with a federally-funded abortion.

  5. #445
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post

    Statuatory rape is not considered to be "forcible", even if the "consenting" child is 12 and the person she had sex with is 20-30 years old. So potentially with this new, improved definition, a 12-yr-old girl from a poor family could be forced to give birth despite the fact that she was legally unable to give consent and was, under the law, raped.
    Who is forcing the 12 year old girl to give birth? And consent is not given in the legal sense at 12 - therefore the 20-30 year old (why only 20-30?) person who ejaculated into the 12 year old is still responsible and should pay for the abortion and pay for medical expenses if the "poor" (I assume economically poor here) girl cannot. There are multiple state resources in each state for such scenario's which would not require an economically poor family to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Most date rapes occur in high school and college. Most victims are vulnerable adolescents who do not yet have the experience to size up potentially dangerous situations... i.e. getting crazy drunk at a frat party, then trying to weakly fend off an equally drunken kid(s) who will not take "no" for an answer. Was she raped? Yeah. She said "no", and she was legally impaired, unable to give consent. These things never go well for the female, since both were drunk and it's he-said, she-said, so there's no chance of a prosecution. If she becomes pregnant, she has no way of proving she was forced.
    Since we're talking about abortion - a test a DNA test can be made to prove either he was or was not the person. However, this is a learning experience to avoid getting "crazy drunk at a frat party" in the future. If she wants the abortion and cannot prove rape legally, her mom and dad are there for a "vulnerable adolescent's" rescue.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    High school kids end up in the same situation. Dewy-eyed girl accepts date with the school heartthrob, only to find herself pinned in the front seat and overpowered. Again, he-said she-said date rape, impossible to prosecute, impossible to prove.
    Same as above.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    The fact is that unless a woman has been visibly beaten, and badly so, she has almost no legal way of proving she was forced, since the male will insist she consented, and reasonable doubt is born. So by simply adding the word "forcible", all of these scenarios would be automatically exempted from abortion funding.
    Proving rape is a whole different issue and thread. This is very focused and while you have good points on very specific situations, it doesn't change much in this thread. The law I think, proposed in the OP, is a good one and more individual responsibility needs to be taken by the perpetrators (assuming they are identified and caught). While adolecent rape, underage rape, date rape are all very concerning situations - I might also point out the other side of the coin which are "false rape" claims. That also, is another thread.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  6. #446
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Who is forcing the 12 year old girl to give birth? And consent is not given in the legal sense at 12 - therefore the 20-30 year old (why only 20-30?) person who ejaculated into the 12 year old is still responsible and should pay for the abortion and pay for medical expenses if the "poor" (I assume economically poor here) girl cannot. There are multiple state resources in each state for such scenario's which would not require an economically poor family to pay.

    Since we're talking about abortion - a test a DNA test can be made to prove either he was or was not the person. However, this is a learning experience to avoid getting "crazy drunk at a frat party" in the future. If she wants the abortion and cannot prove rape legally, her mom and dad are there for a "vulnerable adolescent's" rescue.

    Same as above.

    Proving rape is a whole different issue and thread. This is very focused and while you have good points on very specific situations, it doesn't change much in this thread. The law I think, proposed in the OP, is a good one and more individual responsibility needs to be taken by the perpetrators (assuming they are identified and caught). While adolecent rape, underage rape, date rape are all very concerning situations - I might also point out the other side of the coin which are "false rape" claims. That also, is another thread.
    Her whole point is that the term 'forcible rape' points to litigation, and a legal factor that shouldn't be necessary in such a situation.
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  7. #447
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Her whole point is that the term 'forcible rape' points to litigation, and a legal factor that shouldn't be necessary in such a situation.
    Ok, and the point of this thread wasn't litigation of forcible rape, but of abortions borne out of forcible rape.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  8. #448
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Ok, and the point of this thread wasn't litigation of forcible rape, but of abortions borne out of forcible rape.
    No - the whole debated issue is whether or not government is going to fund abortion.

    And in the text they used the term 'forcible' which opened up a can of worms. . . not all rape is done so with physical force.
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  9. #449
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    No - the whole debated issue is whether or not government is going to fund abortion.

    And in the text they used the term 'forcible' which opened up a can of worms. . . not all rape is done so with physical force.
    Exactly! Thanks.

  10. #450
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    Re: Is This Going Too Far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    House abortion bill redefines rape, incest exceptions - Yahoo! News



    Oddly, despite being pro-abortion rights, I do not have a problem with the concept of federal funds not being allowed to pay for abortions except under limited circumstances, which is the case now. This though seems to be taking things to a new level.

    So what do you think? Is this taking things too far, or are these proposed new restrictions reasonable?
    I agree with what you're saying. I don't think it benefits anybody when the government tries to get involved in medical decisions and deciding who can and can't have a medical procedure. I think it's equally stupid when a private insurance company doesn't cover birth control, but only covers abortion.

    But the thing that really gets me about this stupid f***ing law is that rape is a personal issue and trying to define it and prove it as defined by the government is out of line. The government should get out of this. It almost looks like they are trying to minimize the less violent incidents of rape, and that is unacceptable. I basically see this as the government judging victims of a horrible crime, and judging the level of the victim's suffering set by their standards. This really ticks me off.
    Last edited by SheWolf; 01-30-11 at 09:44 PM.

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