View Poll Results: Is Obama A War Criminal

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  • Yes

    46 53.49%
  • No

    37 43.02%
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    3 3.49%
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Thread: Is Obama A War Criminal

  1. #61
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Which was neither the stated reason for us invading Iraq, or reason to invade Iraq.
    Well, of course not. Bush sold it wrong and played on all of your fears and wants for revenge. He had more faith in your desires to protect yourselves from immediate threats than your sense of duty, obligation, and long term security. But the truth is the truth and there was a reason to complete what we started 13 years prior. Think it through....

    - Do you really believe that the most sophisticated spy network in history thought he might have WMD? In the end, Americans simply wanted revenge on anybody and our leaders used it top do what was necessary even before 9/11.

    After denying the Iraqi people their freedom from the dictator after the Gulf War, we went on to encourage starvation for a decade. We also bombed Iraq 4 separate times under Clinton as he toyed with our forces on the border and toyed with UN conditions for his continued survival. In Bin Laden's letter to you, he made mention of our UN mission with Iraq as one of the excuses for 9/11. Another excuse he used was our presence in Saudi Arabia, which was because of the UN Iraq mission. At the end of 2002, Saddam Hussein flew military jets over Jordanian and Saudi air space. The fact is that we had no choice but to end this mission for a mulitple of reasons. Walking away and leaving the region to his antoginizing ways was not a solution. We have a history of getting sucked into unhealthy regions. Continuing the UN mission was not a solution. Finishing the Gulf War was. To sit back and deny the truth of this and pretend these matters were mere inconvenience is dishonest. I don't understand how you could still state that there was "no reason." I guess we were just in the neighborhood and haphazardly decided over night to kill people for nothing?


    You see, the fact was that Western policy toward Iraq had collapsed. Sanctions were leaking, countless civilians were dying (McIntyre's neglected babies) because of embargo, and Al-Queda was enraged by our base in Saudi Arabia, from which we operated the no-fly zone. Furthermore, whether the White House knew it or not, a more modern and moderate Iraq in the middle of the Arab world would help break the dysfunctional political dynamics of the Arab world. A continued effort by Iraqis to stregthen their democracy and develop tribal ties of collaberations inside Iraq will have major ramifications on the region as a whole. It already has.

    So for McIntyre to simple state "oil" as the reason and yourself simply stating that there was "no reason," I am prone to believe that you both have largely simply dismissed the history of this for the sake of the quick rebellion and a hope that Bush's excuse of WMD is an excuse to play ignorant.

    Think it through, because politicians will never spell it out for you.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-26-11 at 07:08 PM.

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  2. #62
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But the reasoning needs to be sound, and the reasons strong and real. Iraq was none of this.
    According to those that matter, it did. My guess is that you simply don't know the situation.

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  3. #63
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    According to those that matter, it did. My guess is that you simply don't know the situation.
    Those who mattered? A double cone of silence secret reasoning? Well, I can't speak to that, but the public reasoning did not. And as I said, that wouldn't justify invading either. The reasons to invade must be serious, and limited. Imminent threat comes to mind. Stopping genocide comes to mind. Little else.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, of course not. Bush sold it wrong and played on all of your fears and wants for revenge. He had more faith in your desires to protect yourselves from immediate threats than your sense of duty, obligation, and long term security. But the truth is the truth and there was a reason to complete what we started 13 years prior. Think it through....
    Saw your other response first.

    I have thougth it through. That rationale doesn't hold up and it has nothing to do with duty, obligation or long time security. In fact, we likely hurt our long term securityy more than we helped it. The expense alone hurts more.


    - Do you really believe that the most sophisticated spy network in history thought he might have WMD? In the end, Americans simply wanted revenge on anybody and our leaders used it top do what was necessary even before 9/11.
    Nope. Never did. But you are correct here. As Powell said, they ahd the fever.

    After denying the Iraqi people their freedom from the dictator after the Gulf War, we went on to encourage starvation for a decade. We also bombed Iraq 4 separate times under Clinton as he toyed with our forces on the border and toyed with UN conditions for his continued survival. In Bin Laden's letter to you, he made mention of our UN mission with Iraq as one of the excuses for 9/11. Another excuse he used was our presence in Saudi Arabia, which was because of the UN Iraq mission. At the end of 2002, Saddam Hussein flew military jets over Jordanian and Saudi air space. The fact is that we had no choice but to end this mission for a mulitple of reasons. Walking away and leaving the region to his antoginizing ways was not a solution. We have a history of getting sucked into unhealthy regions. Continuing the UN mission was not a solution. Finishing the Gulf War was. To sit back and deny the truth of this and pretend these matters were mere inconvenience is dishonest. I don't understand how you could still state that there was "no reason." I guess we were just in the neighborhood and haphazardly decided over night to kill people for nothing?
    And then we added injury to injury. After all that was done. All those deaths. We brough them war? What the modest estimates of Iraq deaths? 100,000? No, there was nothing that justified invading Iraq. Adding the cost we added, both to us and to them. Something less costly could have been done as Iraq posed no real or significant threat.

    You see, the fact was that Western policy toward Iraq had collapsed. Sanctions were leaking, countless civilians were dying (McIntyre's neglected babies) because of embargo, and Al-Queda was enraged by our base in Saudi Arabia, from which we operated the no-fly zone. Furthermore, whether the White House knew it or not, a more modern and moderate Iraq in the middle of the Arab world would help break the dysfunctional political dynamics of the Arab world. A continued effort by Iraqis to stregthen their democracy and develop tribal ties of collaberations inside Iraq will have major ramifications on the region as a whole. It already has.
    And as I recall, we, some from the Bush administration, had even commented that Saddam was ready to rejoin the world community. We didn't fear Saddam, and most his killing was over, not that his killing bothered us on the whole. We would never invade for that reason as evidenced by us not invading while he was doing it.

    An no, it hasn't. Democracy was already moving in the region. Iraq may actually have hindered movements in Iran. Back then it was pointed out that Iraq played a role in helping their present leader take power. Iraq helped Iran in a lot of ways. Like I said, it hurt our long term interests far more than it helped.

    So for McIntyre to simple state "oil" as the reason and yourself simply stating that there was "no reason," I am prone to believe that you both have largely simply dismissed the history of this for the sake of the quick rebellion and a hope that Bush's excuse of WMD is an excuse to play ignorant.
    I believe I told him I didn't buy oil either. I really don't have an official explination I accept. But a conservative (Muley for those who remember) once gave me an article from a conservative think tank (straffor) that make the argument that Bush told the wrong lie. They argued we wanted a base close to Ian and Iraq was the easy solution. We'd now have bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure Iraqis should feel better about that rationale. I can't say I do, but it makes more sense than iol or wmds, or even your argument. In any case, I've heard nothing I consider valid enough to justify the cost, the human misery associated with 7 -8 years of war.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #65
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No. Bush tortured people, and excused torture. If I were seeking prosecution I would start there. Did Obama do this? If so, bring him up. Bush started a needless war. Not sure that is a "WAR CRIME" per sa, but it should be a crime of some sort. If Obama starts one the same war, charge him under whatever law that shoud fit.
    After a great deal of introspection I decided waterboarding shouldn't be done by americans. If you remember I made that assertion back on whistlestopper. Having said that I don't believe waterboarding constitutes torture. If you believe it does then you need to come to terms with the fact nancy pelosi was aware, despite her protestations, and needs to be prosecuted as well, along with an assortment of other democratic and republican leaders.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  6. #66
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I would insist that Obama, once out of office, be prosecuted for his complicity in war crimes. Same as Bush.
    You're going to have trouble rounding up "leaders" for this country. Have you even considered the ramifications of what you are actually proposing?
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  7. #67
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by McIntyre View Post
    Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And dead babies are dead babies, not collateral damage. The term exists only because we don't want to talk about killing babies. You want to talk about it, call it what it is. If that is self-righteous, so be it. We went to war against Iraq because of oil, not ben Laden. The majority of Americans are well aware of that. The crime they commited was socializing oil, not bombing the twin towers.
    I feel the same way...........about abortion. What say you?
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  8. #68
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    After a great deal of introspection I decided waterboarding shouldn't be done by americans. If you remember I made that assertion back on whistlestopper. Having said that I don't believe waterboarding constitutes torture. If you believe it does then you need to come to terms with the fact nancy pelosi was aware, despite her protestations, and needs to be prosecuted as well, along with an assortment of other democratic and republican leaders.
    I don't care who was aware of it. Prosecute her too as far as I'm concerned. The point is, it was a crime.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #69
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    After a great deal of introspection I decided waterboarding shouldn't be done by americans. If you remember I made that assertion back on whistlestopper. Having said that I don't believe waterboarding constitutes torture. If you believe it does then you need to come to terms with the fact nancy pelosi was aware, despite her protestations, and needs to be prosecuted as well, along with an assortment of other democratic and republican leaders.
    I believe that waterboarding IS torture (how is it not?). I also have no problem with acknowledging that Pelosi lied on this issue and went along with it.

  10. #70
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    You're going to have trouble rounding up "leaders" for this country. Have you even considered the ramifications of what you are actually proposing?
    I think Guy was insisting that it SHOULD be done, not that it CAN.

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