View Poll Results: Is Obama A War Criminal

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  • Yes

    46 53.49%
  • No

    37 43.02%
  • Other (please explain)

    3 3.49%
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Thread: Is Obama A War Criminal

  1. #101
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    C'mon man. It's because you have grown accustomed to shutting down and withdrawing into the 2003 protest. Even President Obama has recognized the path the region is on and even he can't avoid that a democratic Iraq is the focus. But you can? Maybe you haven't thought it through as you think. Hate Bush, hate Rumsfeld, hate the execution they planned, but recognize what's going on at least.
    No, I don't believe Obama credits Bush's invasion of Iraq. It's not logical. However, even if true, it's not mind you, but play along. Even if true, it would still be wrong, imperialistic, immoral. You would be using Iraq, bring death to their people, for something you think might happen.

    No MSgt, I don't buy the argument. Much of this was happening before we invaded Iraq. Iran was even moving closer to real reform. The truth is Bush slowed it down and make things even less certain then they were to begin with.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #102
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    [QUOTE=MSgt;1059249848]
    This is very bumper sticker. Fortunately, we have not spread freedom and democracy by gun point. We merely removed the hinderance we used to support. These people freely went to the polls and freely voted. They accomplished something that Arabs have never accomplished in history, despite their well to do it since the beginning of European colonialism. For peopole to dismiss this and default to their bumper srticker protest, they absolute disrespect these people as insignificant. They matter because an entire region is looking at them.


    The fact is that Iraq is going to push this region further than was possible before 2003. Are you watchning what is going on in Egypt? Do you think these people would be organizing in their protests for modernization and democracy were it not for the heart land of Islam serving as an example? You have been wrong in your shallow protests and the region is going to prove it. They already are. The protest of Iraq has become simple habit for most. Upon further analysis, the old pundits have become silent and only those too stubborn to admit they were short sighted continue the bumper sticker stage.

    Like it or not, but civilizational advancement and true peace has never come without blood shed. And ours depends on this backwards region's ability to emerge from their path into hellish terrorism and religious doctrine. Just what do you think this civilization will turn to when oil runs out if all theyt know is dictators, religious zealism, and oppression? 9/11 was nothing in a region where nuclear weapons are the future.
    If you believe invading iraq, war, gun point is the key to spreading freedom and democracy, than that is exactly what you've done. If you believe it would come by any other means, then war is even less neccessary.

    When you wreack things, break it up, smash it, people do tend to rebuild. But there is no control into how it would be rebuilt. Palistine had elections. Look who won. Iran went more radical when they were moving toward a more moderate goverance. You are simply misreading the events.

    Only to the near sighted and short visioned. Iraq will and is changing the region.
    Everything changes. They were changing before we invaded. Hear what I'm saying. Iran went more radical with the invasion. They were changing peacefully before we invaded.

    Call it what you want, but it is the reality. Crack open any social history book. ....and Iran, China, and Russia stand for nothing that the majority of the world wants. This is why the majority of the world gravitated towards us. Even today, they may gripe about details, but they damn sure want us here. You should learn a little bit more about what this country has stood for since 1775 and what it has done for this world. People don't seem to realize that 1991 marked the end of thousands of years of oppressive prescription. Empire, Monarchy, Colonialism, Dictatorship, and Communism failed. What was left? And who made the global organizations to encourage "peace?" You should be prouder than what you are displaying.
    What they stand for is besides the point. The fact is if you adopt their methods you become more like them. Just as even a comfortable prison is still a prison, an invasion and forced changed even by a democracy is still an invasion and forced change. It is imperialistic and arrogant to think we should impose even good things on the world.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #103
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I don't believe Obama credits Bush's invasion of Iraq. It's not logical.
    It is absolutely logical and it was even forecasted by plenty.

    In regards to Iran. Here was one activist. You think he's alone?....

    Mohsen Sazgara is an Iranian activist and researcher who in August 2003 received a three-month jail sentence for criticizing the regime. Speaking from London, where he is currently receiving medical treatment, he told RFE/RL that he is watching events in Iraq carefully.

    "I personally hope that Iraq's [transition to democracy] will be completed successfully so that it can also help our nation," he says. "For sure, neighbors with democratic governments are much better for us than dictators such as Saddam Hussein or backward groups such as the Taliban."

    Sazgara -- who faces an additional year in jail when he returns home -- says the recent events in Iraq have the power to encourage many young Iranians to push even harder for democratic change in their country.

    "Our young generation in particular has shown -- especially over the past eight years and during the reform movement -- that it has a strong desire for democracy, human rights and civil society, and a strong desire to join the international [community]," Sazgara says. "And when democratic changes take place in our neighboring and brother country Iraq, with its many ties to us, it encourages our youth, and emboldens our young people to ask for change in our current constitution." Iran: Analysts Say Democratic Changes In Iraq May Inspire Similar Trends In Its Neighbor - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty 2011
    This is what Bush stated....

    For decades, the Arab states have seemed exceptions to the laws of politics and human nature. While liberty expanded in many parts of the globe, these nations were left behind, their "freedom deficit" signaling the political underdevelopment that accompanied many other economic and social maladies. In November 2003, President George W. Bush laid out this question:

    "Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?"
    Egypt protests show George W. Bush was right about freedom in the Arab world
    While you were focusing on the latest IED in Iraq, I watched Iraqis vote and I read about Saudi Arabia allowing low level elections for the first time in history. While you were looking for Iraq to erupt into civil war, I was watching Iraqis vote again and read about the Lebanese crackdown to try to get Hezbollah out of their democracy. While you were looking for failure at every turn, I watched other Arab nations appoint ambassadors into Iraq. I watched the modernist voices in Egypt gain strength and unity against Mubarak. I watched Iranians demand fair elections after knowing they were cheated.

    ........And then Tunisia happened. ......and then Egypt happened. .....and then.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Even if true, it would still be wrong, imperialistic, immoral. You would be using Iraq, bring death to their people, for something you think might happen.
    Who gives a **** what you want to call it? Despite the purest's notion of things, often, the ends absolutely justifies the means. Nobody cares about two atomic bombs that brought us victory do they? And we didn't bring death. They created death. Decades of pent up rage and oppression has the tendency to erupt when freed. Look what happened to Yugoslavia the moment the Soviets walked away. CENTCOM know this and accounted for it. Rumsfeld knew this and ignored it. In any rate, how much death do you think Egypt is going to go through? This is the process. Nobody created a nation out of perfect bliss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No MSgt, I don't buy the argument.
    Because it makes you re-think what you have absolutely taught yourself to hate, which has unwittingly placed you on the side of anti-democracy in the Middle East. "Our" dictator in Iraq was going nowhere without our intervention and without the most significant event in Arab recent history, there would be no dominoes today to watch on CNN and FOX.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-30-11 at 02:41 PM.

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  4. #104
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Obama is not a war criminal, neither is Bush.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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  5. #105
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    If Bush was a war criminal, then Obama is a war criminal.
    The incidents for which people accuse Bush of war crimes are different than the ones being discussed here. Sorry but you assertion is illogical, unless we are talking about the two of them carrying on a consistent policy that is considered a war crime. Otherwise your statement sounds much more like grade school reasoning. Perhaps it should have been prefaced with an "....oh yeah, well ....."

    The assertion that Bush was a war criminal is based primarily on the use of waterboarding, which was declared a war crime. It was prosecuted as a war crime by the US at the end of WWII, resulting in the hanging of Japanese soldiers that partook of such activities. To the extent Bush (and perhaps Obama) have ordered or otherwise sanctioned waterboarding, there is a very strong argument that he (they) are guilty of war crimes.

    The discussion here, however, is whether the use of a weapon in a non-war theater that is known to result in a high level of collateral (civilian) casualties is a war crime. That is a much, much different issue. It is, however, worthy of this discussion.

    I just love this need for equivalence by some.... if a republican is guilty of something, there must be democrat guilty of the same exact thing....
    Last edited by upsideguy; 01-30-11 at 03:36 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Come to me leftists. Rally to me leftists. Of course your fearless leader is a war criminal. If anyone wishes to debate me on this point I will ask you to show me the authority under either American or international law which permits the use of flying robots by the Central Intelligence Agency to kill innocent sleeping Pakistani villagers in North Waziristan, South Waziristan and Baluchistan. I defy you to defend your fearless leader.

    When his term of office is over your fearless leader should be extradited to the Hague for trial. Don't raise Bush as a defense to Obama. I would be happy to see them both swing from the gallows.

  7. #107
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Albert, aren't you only saying this because you think it is a useful rhetorical device against leftists to call their (at least originally) preferred leader a war criminal, despite the fact that he is mostly (with some significant differences, of course) following the prosecution of the War on Terrorism like his predecessor? You're starting to sound like a leftist, and make me feel like a damned jingoist (though some here think of me in that way anyway).
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  8. #108
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Albert, aren't you only saying this because you think it is a useful rhetorical device against leftists to call their (at least originally) preferred leader a war criminal, despite the fact that he is mostly (with some significant differences, of course) following the prosecution of the War on Terrorism like his predecessor? You're starting to sound like a leftist, and make me feel like a damned jingoist (though some here think of me in that way anyway).
    Fiddy,

    Debate is like war and like law. It is always advantageous to surprise your opponent.

    Everyone has inconsistencies in their ideology. Leftists are no different. I use their inconsistency and hypocrisy against them.

    I have learned their tactics. I have learned to use truth as a weapon, and I approach leftist from their blind spots so as to surprise them with ideas which have not occurred to them.

    One attacks the left from the left. One attacks the right from the right. Why? They don't anticipate such attacks and are unprepared.

    I am quite open about my objective. It is to resist leftist governance. In doing so I will use any basis to achieve my objective. That includes placing leftists on defense over the hypocritical actions of their president.

    The truth is that there is no lawful basis for drone attacks in Pakistan. None. This is a basis to attack Obama and his foreign and national security policy. The United Nations has spoken out against this tepidly. The conservative legal community is like a cheshire cat eyeing an ObamaBird. This is not over. Drip, drip, drip...

  9. #109
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    If anyone wishes to debate me on this point I will ask you to show me the authority under either American or international law which permits the use of flying robots by the Central Intelligence Agency to kill innocent sleeping Pakistani villagers in North Waziristan, South Waziristan and Baluchistan.
    Pakistan allowing CIA to use airbase for drone strikes | The Australian

    But officials from both countries quietly admit that Pakistan's civilian Government has come to recognise the benefits of co-operating with the US drone strikes, as it struggles to contain a Taliban insurgency that has spread from its border lands into the North West Frontier Province and some of its largest cities.
    Their authority stems from tacit permission from the Pakistani government.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Is Obama A War Criminal

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post

    ....tacit permission...
    I love it when you pretend to be a lawyer. It gives me goose bumps.

    Tacit permission? Tacit permission is worthless. Completely worthless. Why?

    The govt. in Pakistan today will not be the govt in Pakistan tomorrow. Since absolutely nothing is in writing everything is deniable. There is no Pakistani politician, officer or factotum who will ever admit giving Americans permission to kill Pakistani nationals on Pakistani soil. Any Pakistani who did admit such a thing would be murdered by his or her countrymen.

    So what evidence is there that Pakistan gave America tacit permission? Nothing is in writing. No testimonial evidence will be given by any Pakistani national. The only testimony will be from members of the Obama administration who are presumed to be biased and self-serving. No evidence. No defense. That permits prosecution.

    The phenomenon is called Lawfare. It's a form of Warfare.

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