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Is Admitting Students to College based on Sports Beneficial?

Should we allow students to be recruited?

  • Total voters
    28
Dutch said:
It isn't good for the vast majority of the students who, usually don't graduate and usually don't go on to play professional sports.
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are you saying recruits don't usually graduate?
 
I wonder how much of the anti-athletics posts on this thread are the result of

a) nerds who are mad that the jocks were more popular with the good looking girls than they were

b) the jocks got more attention in the school press than they did

c) coaches get paid more than they-as teachers or professors-do

d) the poster not getting into a college he wanted to go to but some jock did


I am still waiting for one of the jock bashers to address my point that those turned down in favor of athletes are the people on the margin not the top applicants
 
TurtleDude said:
I wonder how much of the anti-athletics posts on this thread are the result of

a) nerds who are mad that the jocks were more popular with the good looking girls than they were

b) the jocks got more attention in the school press than they did

c) coaches get paid more than they-as teachers or professors-do

d) the poster not getting into a college he wanted to go to but some jock did


I am still waiting for one of the jock bashers to address my point that those turned down in favor of athletes are the people on the margin not the top applicants
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It's not anti-athletics. Though maybe you're proving a point because obviously you didn't read posts. I've said that sports can be very good and that people can and do excel in both academics and sports. My beef was never with them. It's with the athletes who cannot hack the academic side, but because they play a certain sport really well are given all sorts of cheats and riders to coast through the academic side of University. I'm fine with student athletes so long as they can do their academic work on their own to the standards of the school. As to the broader picture of it being beneficial, I have already explained why that is not true on the aggregated level of University.

But honestly, from your list c is really ****ing annoying. Research professors provide well more utility and money to the University as a whole than any coach ever will. Hell even our coach at Colorado State (who is ****ty and proved it by winning 1 game last year) gets paid well more than any professor who actually provides service to the University as a whole.
 
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ludahai said:
Ivy Schools don't have athletic scholarships. Do they accept athletes that are not academically qualified?
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they are not allowed to-a team cannot be more than one deviation below the student body average (which isn't a whole lot) and individual athletes cannot be more than two. The varsity team I played on at Yale hat a 3.5 average and three phi beta kappas. The most demanding teams-swimming and tennis-had averages above the student body.

Here is another fact-if someone is recruited they have a far higher chance of admission-in 2006 256 athletes were put on "coaches lists" and about 200 were accepted. that is a far higher average but it also speaks to the fact that these kids were well screened by the coaches. and if you are a recruit and are accepted unlike other leagues, you are not going to get booted if you quit the sport. My sophomore suite included a guy who was a parade all american football star-a guy who had been offered full rides to stanford, notre dame and Duke. He played freshman ball for Yale(an ivy rule then) even though he could have started at almost any D 1 school in the USA. after seriously hurting another player from Harvard (a clean tackle that broke the other players leg) he quit and decided to become a doctor-he graduated summa cum laude and there was no risk that his need-based (he was from a blue collar family) scholarship was going to get pulled even though he had been the top recruit in his class
 
Ikari said:
It's not anti-athletics. Though maybe you're proving a point because obviously you didn't read posts. I've said that sports can be very good and that people can and do excel in both academics and sports. My beef was never with them. It's with the athletes who cannot hack the academic side, but because they play a certain sport really well are given all sorts of cheats and riders to coast through the academic side of University. I'm fine with student athletes so long as they can do their academic work on their own to the standards of the school. As to the broader picture of it being beneficial, I have already explained why that is not true on the aggregated level of University.
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People who cannot hack it should fail out-be they athletic recruits, legacies, affirmative action types or admissions office mistakes

that isn't the issue-its about recruiting athletes who push aside the least talented people for getting into the schools
 
TurtleDude said:
People who cannot hack it should fail out-be they athletic recruits, legacies, affirmative action types or admissions office mistakes

that isn't the issue-its about recruiting athletes who push aside the least talented people for getting into the schools
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Yeah, they fail out... :roll: Maybe if they're volleyball players. But pick the right sport and have the right amount of skill and you won't fail out. This happens far more often then I think you're willing to give credit for.
 
Ikari said:
Yeah, they fail out... :roll: Maybe if they're volleyball players. But pick the right sport and have the right amount of skill and you won't fail out. This happens far more often then I think you're willing to give credit for.
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didn't happen at any of the places I attended

tell me Ikari where did you major and where do you teach?

and yes I would rather have a star athlete in my class than the kid who was the last guy to make it into the class
 
TurtleDude said:
and yes I would rather have a star athlete in my class than the kid who was the last guy to make it into the class
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or the spoiled rich kid who thinks he doesn't even have to come to class because daddy's name is on the campus library.
 
TurtleDude said:
didn't happen at any of the places I attended

tell me Ikari where did you major and where do you teach?

and yes I would rather have a star athlete in my class than the kid who was the last guy to make it into the class
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I've had those star athletes. Some were good, some should not have been in University. In Ivy league, the problem is probably a bit less pronounced. One of the reasons Notre Dame will always have problems making a good football team (not that they can't, it's just very difficult) is because they demand very rigorously that the athletes meet the academic expectations of the school (I don't know if Notre Dame is exactly "Ivy League", but it's a school that is very serious about its academics). I've taught at smaller Universities, in Colorado State it's happened a handful of times to TA's who were failing certain folk in lab. I've known other people from other Universities. The larger the school football/basketball program, the more pronounced these violations become. My adviser's good friend teaches at the University of Indiana. He ended up having to teach some course about basketball to the basketball team. The tests were over rules and regulations of basketball. A couple of the players failed. The grade the professor posted was not the grade that ended up on the official University records.

You may want to deny this stuff happens due to your limited experience in academia. But this is one area where I am well versed in, and I've seen this stuff happen.
 
OscarB63 said:
or the spoiled rich kid who thinks he doesn't even have to come to class because daddy's name is on the campus library.
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I don't like any group which skirts their academic responsibilities while in University. It's not hard to perform to spec, not with the psychology and business departments around.
 
repeter said:
Its the other way around, I think. Most athletes forget, and some, like you, do/did not.
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Repeter... were you a college athlete? I was one at a D-1 school competitive in several sports. You would be surprised how many of my fellow athletes were in the study room of the athletes dorm after dinner to work on homework and in come cases take advantage of tutorial services made available to the athletes. Those who did not take their studies seriously were in the minority. The average GPA on my teams was HIGHER than the overall student body average...
 
iamitter said:
That's only half-true. All the ivies send likely letters to athletes. However, as stated before, athletes cannot be more than one SD from the mean AI. I know many recruited athletes that were ridic smart (one kid was recruited for wrestling with a 2390 SAT to my school. Did he not deserve it?). Each coach per sport gets ONE pick per year that they can "recruit" and be essentially guarenteed admission. However, they have to be academically qualified via the AI scale.


I'd just like to note: I was asked at a BB bank at an interview for a summer analyst position just this past semester why I never participated on a team sport. I did club hockey, but didn't think it was relevant to finance, so I didn't put it on my resume. That question, honestly, was the most surprising I ever got at an interview.
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Because as much as people like Ikari hate to admit it, sports can help build characteristics valued in the private sector but CAN'T BE TAUGHT IN THE CLASSROOM!!!
 
Ikari said:
You should have been really good at the right sport. Then you could have done whatever you want.
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Perhaps at your university, but not at mine. Besides, at 5'9" and 140 lbs, a little short for basketball and a little small for football or hockey...
 
Ikari said:
People like to keep saying this, but it's simply not true. For very big programs (and that's not a large percentage of Universities out there), the academic side of the University can get some benefit from their sports teams. But they don't get a lot of money, most of the money made stays in the athletics department. Hookers aren't cheap you know. The money that makes it outside the athletics department is primarily used for advertising, and some small fraction (if it's a big program) makes it to academia.
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Yeah, your anti-athletes bias is showing... You know, as a professor, you should try to understand your students rather than make senseless comments such as this. I don't know abour your state, but in the state I was in, public universities (only one D-1 public university in the state) were REQUIRED by state law to separate academic and athletics funds.

However, there are only so many Ohio State University, University of Florida, Texas A&M, etc. out there. Other schools derive little to no benefit from the sports program on the academic side. In fact, it can be quite the opposite and siphon tons of money away from the academic side so some coach can make ridiculous money to never win a game, so student fees can be increased to make an indoor practice facility for a team that won't ever win. Give give give by the academic side of the University, take take take by the athletics side. And in the end, there is no real benefit gained from doing so. However, we have somehow ingrained it into our psyche that we must have a football team, we must have a basketball team, we must support this and that; even at Universities which cannot really support it. So to the generalized question as to whether or not admitting students based on sports is beneficial, it's not. Because the only place the University in terms of academia can hope to benefit from the sports programs is in schools with very large programs. And those happen to be the programs which will also have the most cheating.
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Again, this is not allowed by the state law in several (perhaps many states).
 
Dutch said:
It isn't good for the vast majority of the students who, usually don't graduate and usually don't go on to play professional sports.
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The VAST MAJORITY of student-athletes graduate. I know facts are hard to swallow for those who are jealous of good athletes who become good due to tremendous amounts of work and sacrifice... Do you even understand how hard most of us work and the sacrifices we make to be both students AND athletes???
 
TurtleDude said:
I wonder how much of the anti-athletics posts on this thread are the result of

a) nerds who are mad that the jocks were more popular with the good looking girls than they were
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Yeah, my gf in university was a really hot gymnast from Asia... how many slobbish bookworks do you think were a tad jealous of that???
 
ludahai said:
Perhaps at your university, but not at mine. Besides, at 5'9" and 140 lbs, a little short for basketball and a little small for football or hockey...
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Hockey cheaters need to go to DU.
 
ludahai said:
Yeah, my gf in university was a really hot gymnast from Asia... how many slobbish bookworks do you think were a tad jealous of that???
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Your anti-intellectualism is showing.


heheh, and that's call tit for tat
 
ludahai said:
Yeah, your anti-athletes bias is showing... You know, as a professor, you should try to understand your students rather than make senseless comments such as this. I don't know abour your state, but in the state I was in, public universities (only one D-1 public university in the state) were REQUIRED by state law to separate academic and athletics funds.
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Man, either you people don't read the news or you ignore all the good football controversy.

ludahai said:
Again, this is not allowed by the state law in several (perhaps many states).
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I'm not arguing they are not. I was merely saying that on the aggregated University level, sports do not widely benefit the University apart from advertising. And in some states, a bit of funding. But regardless of State law, most income revenue is kept in the athletics department.
 
Ikari said:
Your anti-intellectualism is showing.


heheh, and that's call tit for tat
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How am I anti-intellectual? Many athletes manage to be both... Unlike you who have made SEVERAL posts that do little more than parrot common stereotypes that apply to a small percentage of student-athletes... (BTW, I have two masters degrees ... hardly anti-intellectual)
 
You were making fun of intellectuals. When I made fun of certain jocks, I got called anti-athlete or something like that.

By the way, you may want to go back and get a degree in English. I have said many times that there are smart athletes and that my problem was not with them. But rather my problem is with the athletes who cannot maintain on their own the academic standards of the University but are none the less allowed to persist and graduate from University.
 
Ikari said:
But regardless of State law, most income revenue is kept in the athletics department.
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so, what is the problem with revenue generated by sports staying in the athletics department? you don't see the football program crying because the physics dept isn't handing over a portion of their research grants to buy new uniforms.
 
OscarB63 said:
so, what is the problem with revenue generated by sports staying in the athletics department? you don't see the football program crying because the physics dept isn't handing over a portion of their research grants to buy new uniforms.
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A portion of our research grants does go to athletics. The point aside. The question was is it beneficial. To which people said yes because it brings in money to the University. I was merely clarifying that while it can bring in money (depending on the size of the program), that money doesn't go to the University at large; but rather is funneled back into the athletics department. So just because it brings in money does not mean that it is providing a benefit to the University as a whole.

It's a funny thing about that crying football program because our football program does cry a lot. And we give in. They need new facilities, they need an indoor practice arena because outside is cold, they need this, they need that. They don't go out and have a bake sale, they cry to us. And we give in. And student fees go up, and general funds goes down. We all pay more, give them what they want; and the still suck. I think we should get a little something something for our money.

Well in reality, I think that CSU football should be a club sport and our hockey club and or baseball club should be promoted up.
 
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ludahai said:
Yeah, my gf in university was a really hot gymnast from Asia... how many slobbish bookworks do you think were a tad jealous of that???
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lots-and mine was the #3 on the squash team-I taught her how to play (she was a vg HS tennis player and was a little too short to make it playing D1 tennis) she was born to wear tennis skirts!
 
Ikari said:
Your anti-intellectualism is showing.


heheh, and that's call tit for tat
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still waiting for that answer as to your college. being a good athlete is hardly anti-intellectual
 
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