View Poll Results: What do you think of Capital Punishment?

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Thread: Capital Punishment

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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    I sometimes think it would be the utmost humiliation for someone like Hitler to have rotted in prison for the rest if his life, a sort of triumph of civilized over barbaric values where this once all powerful fiend is reduced to the drab ordinariness of being prisoner 12345 and the awesome power of civilized peoples to refuse the most intense provocation to revenge is clearly demonstrated.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    I HATE capital punishment. This is one of the issues I feel most strongly about.

    I believe it is wrong to kill people. Period. No one is pure evil, and even a serial killer has redeeming qualities. By killing this person, we are sending the message that this human's life is worth nothing because he killed people. I disagree with the message as well as the act.

    We make ourselves the enemy when we use capital punishment. If we truly wanted to affirm the highest value of human life, we would never kill people for "punishment". Never.

    By killing killers, we prove ourselves hypocritical at the same time as stooping down to the level of the killer. I just can't see how we can legally take someone's life and have no problem with it.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by zachjj View Post
    I HATE capital punishment. This is one of the issues I feel most strongly about.

    I believe it is wrong to kill people. Period. No one is pure evil, and even a serial killer has redeeming qualities. By killing this person, we are sending the message that this human's life is worth nothing because he killed people. I disagree with the message as well as the act.

    We make ourselves the enemy when we use capital punishment. If we truly wanted to affirm the highest value of human life, we would never kill people for "punishment". Never.

    By killing killers, we prove ourselves hypocritical at the same time as stooping down to the level of the killer. I just can't see how we can legally take someone's life and have no problem with it.
    Bold part: umm...yeah, that's kind of the point.

    Underlined Part: If there was a better way to deal with these people that would gauruntee that no one else would pay for what he did/does then I'm quite sure that it would be used. However every day that a killer lives is another chance for him to kill someone. Even if he/she is in prison they have the chance of killing someone else. If you truely valued life then you would want to make sure that he never got the chance to kill again. What better way to do that than to kill him?

    If there ever came a time when some type of brainwashing or something similar could be used on criminals that would gauruntee that they never hurt anyone ever again, then I would advocate using that over the DP. Until then we have to think of the people that interact with the killer before we even begin to think of the killer.

    Red part: Human beings kill. It is in our nature. Cops kill, soldiers kill, we kill in self defense..sometimes meaning to, other times not meaning to, we can kill by driving a car drunk. Killing is just the way that life works. We could jump 1000 years into the future and killing would still be around.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    I sometimes think it would be the utmost humiliation for someone like Hitler to have rotted in prison for the rest if his life, a sort of triumph of civilized over barbaric values where this once all powerful fiend is reduced to the drab ordinariness of being prisoner 12345 and the awesome power of civilized peoples to refuse the most intense provocation to revenge is clearly demonstrated.
    I see the appeal of that. But I do wonder how much of a triumph it would really be. I would normally consider a life sentence more "civilized" a punishment than death, but in some circumstances it seems even more inappropriately motivated by base hatred and revenge than the alternative. Causing someone utmost humiliation is probably different from physical torture and undoubtedly different from ending one's life, but I don't know it is any more civilized as a concrete matter. For Hitler, I think execution would have been best - the argument being that the harm he caused the human race and life in general caused him to forever forfeit his own personal right to life. Insofar as the dangers of capital punishment are hypocrisy and improper motives of vengeance, I just don't see that result as being very hypocritical or vengeful at all.

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    Re: Capital Punishment

    I don't think the government should have the ability to execute anyone, for any reason. Life in prison without parole should be the absolute harshest penalty allowed. The occasional serial killer would get life w/o parole, but I personally think that one-time murderers (depending on the circumstances), should be given life with parole after some ridiculous amount of years, with a very harsh parole board.

    If you want to reduce prison populations then take one look at drug policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Bold part: umm...yeah, that's kind of the point.

    Underlined Part: If there was a better way to deal with these people that would gauruntee that no one else would pay for what he did/does then I'm quite sure that it would be used. However every day that a killer lives is another chance for him to kill someone. Even if he/she is in prison they have the chance of killing someone else. If you truely valued life then you would want to make sure that he never got the chance to kill again. What better way to do that than to kill him?

    If there ever came a time when some type of brainwashing or something similar could be used on criminals that would gauruntee that they never hurt anyone ever again, then I would advocate using that over the DP. Until then we have to think of the people that interact with the killer before we even begin to think of the killer.

    Red part: Human beings kill. It is in our nature. Cops kill, soldiers kill, we kill in self defense..sometimes meaning to, other times not meaning to, we can kill by driving a car drunk. Killing is just the way that life works. We could jump 1000 years into the future and killing would still be around.
    This gibberish again about all the dead prison guards. It's your barbaric US prison system that's the problem and this results in a few guards getting killed by inmates who haven't killed before as well. Civilized countries do not have this problem. They don't have DP and they don't have a problem with dead guards. It's a massive red herring in this argument.

    The USA has the most illiberal penal policies of all advanced industrial nations. It has the highest incidence of violent crime and murder by a mile. There's a little clue there. Running your penal policy based on kill them or throw away the key vengeance kneejerking simply doesn't work.

    But it makes a lot of people feel better.
    Last edited by Plato; 03-05-11 at 01:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    I see the appeal of that. But I do wonder how much of a triumph it would really be. I would normally consider a life sentence more "civilized" a punishment than death, but in some circumstances it seems even more inappropriately motivated by base hatred and revenge than the alternative. Causing someone utmost humiliation is probably different from physical torture and undoubtedly different from ending one's life, but I don't know it is any more civilized as a concrete matter. For Hitler, I think execution would have been best - the argument being that the harm he caused the human race and life in general caused him to forever forfeit his own personal right to life. Insofar as the dangers of capital punishment are hypocrisy and improper motives of vengeance, I just don't see that result as being very hypocritical or vengeful at all.
    This is where pro DP people misunderstand. It's not about Hitlers rights. It's about what sort of society we want to live in. I'm not even primarily interested in the humiliation of the individual (although it would be a bit of a bonus here). The argument is that not executing demonstrates the utmost superiority of us and our societies over the criminal's world. It is an affirmation of our civilized values over the instinct of the wild. We just don't behave like criminals do, in the slightest way whatsoever. We restrain; we rehabilitate; we protect ourselves using prisons. But we don't kill. A lot of imprisoned dictators sharing a landing with other killers would be an eloquent expression of the superiority of modern human civilization over values of barbarism, vengeance, human sacrifice (to our ideal of the sanctity of life) or other irrational and unexplained "because I say so" arguments.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    This gibberish again about all the dead prison guards. It's your barbaric US prison system that's the problem and this results in a few guards getting killed by inmates who haven't killed before as well. Civilized countries do not have this problem. They don't have DP and they don't have a problem with dead guards. It's a massive red herring in this argument.
    Civilized Countries? Are you insinuating that the US isn't civilized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    The USA has the most illiberal penal policies of all advanced industrial nations. It has the highest incidence of violent crime and murder by a mile. There's a little clue there. Running your penal policy based on kill them or throw away the key vengeance kneejerking simply doesn't work.

    But it makes a lot of people feel better.
    Bold part: Considering the context of that statement? Thank you.

    Underlined part: Check your figures again bub. We're ranked 24 per capita in murder. We are ranked #8 in total crimes per capita also.

    So...What country do you live in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Civilized Countries? Are you insinuating that the US isn't civilized?



    Bold part: Considering the context of that statement? Thank you.

    Underlined part: Check your figures again bub. We're ranked 24 per capita in murder. We are ranked #8 in total crimes per capita also.

    So...What country do you live in?
    I'm talking about the advanced industrial democratic world which broadly shares the same economic and political system as the USA. In other words Western Europe, Canada, Australasia. Those countries which have benefited from modern liberal democratic capitalism like the USA has but do not share it's barbaric penal system.

    You compare yourself with Latin American dictatorships and former communist countries if it makes you feel better. The USA as the leader of the free world really should have higher standards.

    I live in Hong Kong which has very much a British style legal system.
    Last edited by Plato; 03-05-11 at 10:33 AM.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    I'm talking about the advanced industrial democratic world which broadly shares the same economic and political system as the USA. In other words Western Europe, Canada, Australasia. Those countries which have benefited from modern liberal democratic capitalism like the USA has but do not share it's barbaric penal system.

    You compare yourself with Latin American dictatorships and former communist countries if it makes you feel better. The USA as the leader of the free world really should have higher standards.

    I live in Hong Kong which has very much a British style legal system.
    I'm assuming that the bold part there was in reference to the links I gave? Perhaps you didn't look at them close enough as there are European countries that are worse off than the US.

    All I can say is that you really need to start studying up on the problems that are going on over in European countries. Because if you think that they are more advanced than the US democratically...you have been drinking way too much kool-aid.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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