View Poll Results: What do you think of Capital Punishment?

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Thread: Capital Punishment

  1. #281
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by snbl11225 View Post
    I oppose the death penalty based on the following reasons.
    1. With the potential for wrongful convictions you can never assure that you are not convicting an innocent man. The recent results of DNA are just one example. Additionally, the established weakness of eye witness testimony has been demonstrated to be significant.The reality is that 130 people have been released from death row based on innocence from 1973. Between 1973-1999 there have been 3.1 released based on innocence per year and between 2000-2007 there have been 5 on innocence per yea. The possibility of executing an innocent person alone, in my opinion, justifies that capital punishment be repealed.
    2. Contrary to popular opinion, the judicial system is not about truth but rather about winning. It is hoped that in an adversarial system truth will surface. Having worked in the criminal justice system throughout may working years, that is not always the case. Attorneys are concerned about putting a Win before there name rather than concentrate on the truth. Economics also comes into play. The better the attorney, the greater the opportunity of not receiving the death penalty. Ninety percent of all people on death row cannot afford an attorney.
    Past failures need to stop being used. Failures in the past in no way indicate that those convicted with DNA evidence now are innocent nor will they be proven innocent, so those convicted with DNA evidence now should be killed without question.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    I support it. Some people are of no further use to society, and it is counter-productive to house them with people we might have a chance of salvaging.
    A fine argument if you scrap the humanity of man.

  3. #283
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    A fine argument if you scrap the humanity of man.
    Judging by the kind of people we have on death row, it doesn't seem like the "humanity of man" is worth a hill of beans in the first place.

    I don't ask for people to be useful; I only ask that they refrain from being actively detrimental to society.

  4. #284
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It might be about vengeance for many, just not for me and my reasoning. I am completely on the mark and just saying that I am replacing a word and missing it certainly doesn't hold any water. Whether or not the DP is arbitrary or not is absolutely irrelevant, as you say, all punishments are arbitrary. So if you are saying that my reasoning doesn't hit the mark, then no punishments hit the mark. I have no idea why you are bringing up natural consequences at all... but
    Then the entire 'consequence' argument needs to be dropped. We are discussing whether capital punishment SHOULD be used. Merely saying it is a consequence of a criminal action is describing the current state of affairs, not explaining it. In those circumstances, I will agree with you. The Death Penalty IS the current consequence of committing certain criminal acts in certain states. That doesn't justify it, merely describes it. So what IS your justification?
    a natural consequence of trying to kill my child will be that I kill you. That is seen in the natural world the world over...
    No, it is not. Not everyone who has a child that is the victim of attempted murder kills the attacker. It is a decision, a fairly understandable emotional decision perhaps, but not inevitable and does not occur in even 50% of cases. THAT'S why I mentioned 'natural' consequences, which are utterly different to the example you gave.

    Look, if you are not going to accept it and then challenge it, at least challenge the ethical aspects of the argument that I am utilizing and not introduce all this other irrelevant stuff about gravity when discussing the DP.
    Well, I'm just not sure what your ethical argument is.

    I did not introduce irrelevant stuff, merely pointed out the fallacy inherent in using a word like 'consequence' when it has several different meanings. 'Natural' consequences are entirely different to human reactions to events, which are not inevitable.

    So far, the only pro-DP argument that seems to make any ethical sense is the one Catz uses about incapacitating dangerous criminals from harming others. I would argue that incarceration can do that, but I recognise that people can hold her position in all good conscience.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 02-24-11 at 05:08 AM.
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  5. #285
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Past failures need to stop being used. Failures in the past in no way indicate that those convicted with DNA evidence now are innocent nor will they be proven innocent, so those convicted with DNA evidence now should be killed without question.
    DNA is not as sure evidence as you appear to believe
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  6. #286
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Judging by the kind of people we have on death row, it doesn't seem like the "humanity of man" is worth a hill of beans in the first place.
    And that's the problem with a fascistic take on morality. Order is all, humanity, in all its imperfection, is merely something to be controlled. It's an easy argument to make when you are dealing with murderers. The problem is, as you've expressed many time when discussing an aspect of dissent within society, that you believe the iron fist is the right and the responsibility of rulers. Given the anti-democratic nature of fascist attitudes to governmental change, the de facto power of rulers is not always legitimate, hence often tyrannical.

    I don't ask for people to be useful; I only ask that they refrain from being actively detrimental to society.
    Unfortunately, what you might deem 'actively detrimental', others would call legitimate dissent or ethical disobedience.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 02-24-11 at 05:22 AM.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    And that's the problem with a fascistic take on morality. Order is all, humanity, in all its imperfection, is merely something to be controlled. It's an easy argument to make when you are dealing with murderers, the problem is, as you've expressed many time when discussing an aspect of dissent within society, that you believe the iron fist is the right and the responsibility of rulers. Given the anti-democratic nature of fascist attitudes to governmental change, the de facto power of rulers is not always legitimate, hence often tyrannical.


    Unfortunately, what you might deem 'actively detrimental', others would call legitimate dissent or ethical disobedience.
    Must admit Andalblue the thought that crossed my mind in reading Viktyr Korimir's post was I wonder how many of us would be left. You put it much better.
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  8. #288
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Arguing in support of capital punishment is saying that you approve of a government funded and operated death panel. Now are you guys sure you want to support that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Past failures need to stop being used. Failures in the past in no way indicate that those convicted with DNA evidence now are innocent nor will they be proven innocent, so those convicted with DNA evidence now should be killed without question.
    These are the words of somebody who has not done their homework. New forensic science is frequently misused. Look at some of the cases in which DNA evidence has been presented and later found to be absolute garbage. To all those people saying that it's ok as long as most of the people we execute are actually guilty, what if the one innocent person tried and executed is you? Are you alright with sacrificing your life in order to maintain this system? I'm sure those of you saying "we should execute more people" would think differently if you were currently on death row because you had the wrong tattoo or you drove the wrong car or you were in the wrong place on the wrong night.
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  9. #289
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Then the entire 'consequence' argument needs to be dropped. We are discussing whether capital punishment SHOULD be used. Merely saying it is a consequence of a criminal action is describing the current state of affairs, not explaining it. In those circumstances, I will agree with you. The Death Penalty IS the current consequence of committing certain criminal acts in certain states. That doesn't justify it, merely describes it. So what IS your justification?
    That these crimes merit that a person forfeit their right to life. They have chosen to be removed by their actions and any positive future use that they may have is irrelevant.

    No, it is not. Not everyone who has a child that is the victim of attempted murder kills the attacker. It is a decision, a fairly understandable emotional decision perhaps, but not inevitable and does not occur in even 50% of cases. THAT'S why I mentioned 'natural' consequences, which are utterly different to the example you gave.
    If just about any parent is standing there while some person tries to kill their child, they will try to kill the perpatrator in order to stop them. I don't know what kind of parents you know... I doubt any parent would waste a nano-second in thinking "how can I stop this guy from killing my child in a manner that will not kill this murdering savage, hmmm?"

    Well, I'm just not sure what your ethical argument is.

    I did not introduce irrelevant stuff, merely pointed out the fallacy inherent in using a word like 'consequence' when it has several different meanings. 'Natural' consequences are entirely different to human reactions to events, which are not inevitable.

    So far, the only pro-DP argument that seems to make any ethical sense is the one Catz uses about incapacitating dangerous criminals from harming others. I would argue that incarceration can do that, but I recognise that people can hold her position in all good conscience.
    Deontological Ethics...
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  10. #290
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    DNA is not as sure evidence as you appear to believe
    Upon doing some research, I am finding that you are correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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