View Poll Results: What do you think of Capital Punishment?

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • Support it

    50 50.00%
  • Condone it

    21 21.00%
  • Neutral

    2 2.00%
  • other (explain)

    27 27.00%
Page 28 of 34 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 280 of 331

Thread: Capital Punishment

  1. #271
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This is not true, and it doesn't really help our anti-DP case to believe that it is. You do not have to be insane to step over the line into killing and heinous acts. Psychiatry draws a clear line between mental illness and personality disorders. One is not the other. One can understand the distinctions between right and wrong and, while not necessarily empathising with their victims, can recognise the consequences of their violent actions. The others cannot. I am as anti- the death penalty as you, but we only win the argument if we concentrate on rational and ethical, rather than ad hominem, arguments.
    This is not true. The ability to make moral choices cannot easily be assessed by psychiatrists. A rational understanding of right and wrong is not a capability to choose between the two. Psychopaths are unable to choose between right and wrong being driven by a neurosis to act as they do, but they are able to rationally understand what society sees as right or wrong. And psychiatrists reject psychopathy as mental illness on the basis that it cannot be cured, not on any assessment of ability to make moral choices. Also there is no clarity as often there is conflicting medical evidence. In UK prisons for example there are clearly loopy people like Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, who were found sane despite defense psychiatrists evidence. There are many US death row cases where the intelligence of the accused is so low that moral competence is highly questionable. That may not be insanity but it is the flipside of the psychopath.

    Insane people can be protected from the death penalty by compassion but they are also protected due to the patent irrelevance of the deterrent argument towards them, which was my argument. This equally extends to those people with personality disorders like psychopaths who are often indifferent to the consequences of their actions.

    The only examples of clearly sane people committing mass murder or serial killing would be political killers although often these organizations attract pathological killers rather than people who make conscious and empathizing moral choices.
    Last edited by Plato; 02-21-11 at 12:48 PM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  2. #272
    Dungeon Master
    Hooter Babe

    DiAnna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Northern California
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,686
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    ... Clinton sent an insane person to his death, for public popularity...
    Andalublue adequately responded to the rest of your post, but could you please give further information on the above statement? Who was this insane person, and in what capacity was Clinton (which Clinton, btw, Bill or Hillary) responsible for sending him to his death?

  3. #273
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Andalublue adequately responded to the rest of your post, but could you please give further information on the above statement? Who was this insane person, and in what capacity was Clinton (which Clinton, btw, Bill or Hillary) responsible for sending him to his death?
    Bill Clinton. Governor of Arkansas. During the 1992 Presidential election.

    Ricky Ray Rector

    Famous because at his last meal he asked for his dessert to be saved for after the execution.

    Often cited as an example of Clinton's total lack of principles and his ruthless prioritization of popularity above all else. Particularly by Christopher Hitchens.

    This type of execution is now judged cruel and unusual punishment by SCOTUS.
    Last edited by Plato; 02-22-11 at 08:59 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  4. #274
    Dungeon Master
    Hooter Babe

    DiAnna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Northern California
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,686
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Ah, yes, a very strange and disturbing case. I think the execution was absolutely wrong. However, your initial statement implied that Clinton had actually prosecuted Rector, when in fact he simply refused to issue an order of executive clemency to stop it eleven years later. As I understand it, an order of excutive clemency would not have simply stopped the execution; it would have set the man completely free, basically wiping his conviction off the books. This is a pretty touchy situation. Ray had murdered two people. After agreeing to turn himself in for the first murder, he shot the police officer who negotiated his surrender in the back, murdering him. Then he shot himself in the head, but survived.

    The situation is touchy because Ray was sane when he committed the 1981 murders, and any mental condition he had afterwards was by his own hand. Now I don't think he should have even been tried. However, there were apparently enough psychiatrists willing to state that he was legally sane that he was tried, convicted and sentenced to execution, a sentence that was repeatedly upheld on appeal.

    Bill Clinton had nothing to do with any of this. He simply refused to set aside the verdicts of all the courts and appeals courts that had refused to overturn the conviction. I can't find any statistics on how many governors have stopped executions over the years, but frankly it's damned few because doing so means overruling the entire justice system and appeals process. Although the system doesn't work perfectly, it's all we've got at the moment.

    Cases like this are the reason I continue to believe that capital cases are being prosecuted far too often, and for all the wrong reasons.

    And Christopher Hitchens is an ass, with zero credibility to anyone except those desperate for the good-old-days of Clinton-bashing.

  5. #275
    Dispenser of Negativity
    Cold Highway's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Newburgh, New York and World 8: Dark Land
    Last Seen
    12-24-12 @ 11:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    9,596
    Blog Entries
    7

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    And Christopher Hitchens is an ass, with zero credibility to anyone except those desperate for the good-old-days of Clinton-bashing.
    Meh, I enjoy his religion bashing.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

  6. #276
    User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Last Seen
    06-09-12 @ 12:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    90

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Why didn't you have an option for those who oppose the death penalty. That, to me, skews your result.

  7. #277
    Sage
    Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:53 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    64,088

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Plato
    Every argument except vengeance collapses under pressure. And of course the vengeance argument isn't an argument. It's an emotional reaction.
    I clearly refuted your assertions in post #263 yet you voided answering... pretty telling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  8. #278
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I clearly refuted your assertions in post #263 yet you voided answering... pretty telling.
    I'm afraid I don't accept your 'consequence' argument, not at all. You are saying that the DP is not vengeance, but consequence of the action they have undertaken in taking another life. That might hold water were it not for the fact that the DP is an entirely arbitrary consequence, devised by politicians and therefore imperfect in its conception, as are indeed all punishments. There is no such thing as a 'natural' consequence unless we are discussing the laws of nature (gravity, relativity etc) and not the laws of man.

    We (or rather those who have it) choose to make the DP the consequence of murder. Why they do so, well we are in the process of discussing that matter, are we not? You dismiss the idea that vengeance is involved, but in putting in its place 'consequence', you entirely miss the mark.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  9. #279
    User
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Last Seen
    06-09-12 @ 12:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    90

    Re: Capital Punishment

    I oppose the death penalty based on the following reasons.
    1. With the potential for wrongful convictions you can never assure that you are not convicting an innocent man. The recent results of DNA are just one example. Additionally, the established weakness of eye witness testimony has been demonstrated to be significant.The reality is that 130 people have been released from death row based on innocence from 1973. Between 1973-1999 there have been 3.1 released based on innocence per year and between 2000-2007 there have been 5 on innocence per yea. The possibility of executing an innocent person alone, in my opinion, justifies that capital punishment be repealed.
    2. Contrary to popular opinion, the judicial system is not about truth but rather about winning. It is hoped that in an adversarial system truth will surface. Having worked in the criminal justice system throughout may working years, that is not always the case. Attorneys are concerned about putting a Win before there name rather than concentrate on the truth. Economics also comes into play. The better the attorney, the greater the opportunity of not receiving the death penalty. Ninety percent of all people on death row cannot afford an attorney.

  10. #280
    Sage
    Bodhisattva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Zealand
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:53 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    64,088

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I'm afraid I don't accept your 'consequence' argument, not at all. You are saying that the DP is not vengeance, but consequence of the action they have undertaken in taking another life. That might hold water were it not for the fact that the DP is an entirely arbitrary consequence, devised by politicians and therefore imperfect in its conception, as are indeed all punishments. There is no such thing as a 'natural' consequence unless we are discussing the laws of nature (gravity, relativity etc) and not the laws of man.

    We (or rather those who have it) choose to make the DP the consequence of murder. Why they do so, well we are in the process of discussing that matter, are we not? You dismiss the idea that vengeance is involved, but in putting in its place 'consequence', you entirely miss the mark.
    It might be about vengeance for many, just not for me and my reasoning. I am completely on the mark and just saying that I am replacing a word and missing it certainly doesn't hold any water. Whether or not the DP is arbitrary or not is absolutely irrelevant, as you say, all punishments are arbitrary. So if you are saying that my reasoning doesn't hit the mark, then no punishments hit the mark. I have no idea why you are bringing up natural consequences at all... but a natural consequence of trying to kill my child will be that I kill you. That is seen in the natural world the world over...

    Look, if you are not going to accept it and then challenge it, at least challenge the ethical aspects of the argument that I am utilizing and not introduce all this other irrelevant stuff about gravity when discussing the DP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

Page 28 of 34 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •