View Poll Results: What do you think of Capital Punishment?

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Thread: Capital Punishment

  1. #261
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Most murders are commited due to fits of rage or commited while commiting another crime. If I remember right psychopaths actually make up for around 1% or less of all murders. So while a death sentence wouldn't deter a psychopath it should be a deterrant for those commiting a murder for other reasons.
    So how does it cure "fits of rage"?

    There are many other states of mind that impair someones ability to control themselves. Certain typres of epilepsy for one.

    The people who commit the most heinous crimes - the ones that inspire the clamours for vengeance the most - are generally suffering from conditions which impair their ability to make clear choices. If there is any deterrent that can make any difference here it is clearly around the certainty of being caught, not the punishment. Even then it is likely that this effect would be marginal as one of the underlying characteristics of these conditions is an inability to assess the consequences of ones actions.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    If you wish to have a dialogue with me? You are gonna have to leave your pomposity at the door.
    Sorry... are you now trying to give the impression that you have conducted this discussion with impeccable respect for the persons who disagree with you?

    Just to be clear, this is you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali
    Bleeding hearts wish to whine and cry...
    isn't it? Before I addresed your "arguments"?

    It seems you like to give out the abuse of your opponents (in posts like the one I cite here) but a little polemic in return makes the kitchen a bit too hot?

    I suspect this is what happens when your arguments are demolished, as they have been. If you don't wish to reply that is up to you. Others may notice that my "pomposity" followed your vilification of the opponents of the death penalty as a whole.

    Yours (as quoted here) is a tired and tedious debating tactic in this area - attacking your opponents as being morally, physically and spiritually weak. Mine was an entirely appropriate way to respond to the drivelly arguments that were posted. It involved no ad hominem attack, unlike your post. It just demonstrated the speciousness of your argument. I don't mind if you need to rely on snidey sneering abuse of those who disagree with you, like me. I can handle myself.

    Now that your argument has come under some pressure....you don't like it.
    Last edited by Plato; 02-20-11 at 09:39 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  3. #263
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    So you are clear that capital punishment is not a deterrent.

    Of course you have thought your solution through. So you presumably support executing psychopaths whether they have committed a crime or not, as, like a rabid dog that had killed or bitten no-one, psychopaths are a serious threat to public safety at five years old when they have committed no crimes but their eyes have began to swivel.

    Or is it not quite the same?

    Every argument except vengeance collapses under pressure. And of course the vengeance argument isn't an argument. It's an emotional reaction.
    Having the DP as a consequence to an action certainly does not collapse under pressure.

    It is NOT about Revenge or vengeance anyway...

    revenge  /rɪˈvɛndʒ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-venj] Show IPA Pronunciation
    verb, -venged, -veng⋅ing, noun
    –verb (used with object) 1. to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, esp. in a resentful or vindictive spirit: He revenged his murdered brother.
    2. to take vengeance for; inflict punishment for; avenge: He revenged his brother's murder.


    Revenge | Define Revenge at Dictionary.com

    Revenge is done out of an emotive response. The DP is not about revenge for me. It is about CONSEQUENCE.

       consequence/ˈkɒnsɪˌkwɛns, -kwəns/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kon-si-kwens, -kwuhns] Show IPA Pronunciation

    –noun 1. the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier: The accident was the consequence of reckless driving.
    2. an act or instance of following something as an effect, result, or outcome.
    3. the conclusion reached by a line of reasoning; inference.
    4. importance or significance: a matter of no consequence.
    5. importance in rank or position; distinction: a man of great consequence in art


    Consequence | Define Consequence at Dictionary.com

    If my kid eats a cookie before dinner without asking, then they get a time out.
    Is that "Revenge"? No... it is a CONSEQUENCE for the action that she undertook.

    Ethics...

    explains the rightness of actions in terms of the goodness of the state of affairs that occurs because of that action. If some action genuinely brings about greater good in the world, then it is a right action, and this rightness is independent of the nature of the action or the intentions of the person carrying out the action.

    Deontological ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers
    - John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence

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    "It is by exacting the highest penalty for the taking of human life that we affirm the highest value of human life."
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  4. #264
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    So how does it cure "fits of rage"?
    Honestly it doesn't. But those that kill while in a rage normally don't get sentenced to death. The ones that we can definitely target with this are people like gang bangers that repeatedly kill, drug lords, etc etc. IE the type of people that kill because of stupid crap like money, drugs, turf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    There are many other states of mind that impair someones ability to control themselves. Certain typres of epilepsy for one.
    Last I knew epilepsy does not trigger one to kill. Unless of course the person that is having the epilepsy attack is holding a gun at the time....Then its purely accidental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    The people who commit the most heinous crimes - the ones that inspire the clamours for vengeance the most - are generally suffering from conditions which impair their ability to make clear choices. If there is any deterrent that can make any difference here it is clearly around the certainty of being caught, not the punishment. Even then it is likely that this effect would be marginal as one of the underlying characteristics of these conditions is an inability to assess the consequences of ones actions.
    Where there is a clear mental condition those people are not normally condemned to death. So is irrelevant.
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  5. #265
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    I would be more for capital punishment if there weren't so many innocents (as has been previously pointed out). For me, it is quite a stretch that people can decide whether or not someone deserves to live, but I am willing to consider the idea.

    If I could be guaranteed that everyone convicted was guilty, I would be more inclined to side with capital punishment.

  6. #266
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Trust me, THAT is not going to happen.
    It seems you were correct

    I cannot converse with such big ego. I just cannot as it is like talking to someone who feels they are up in the air while sitting down here on a chair
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  7. #267
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by whysoserious View Post
    I would be more for capital punishment if there weren't so many innocents (as has been previously pointed out). For me, it is quite a stretch that people can decide whether or not someone deserves to live, but I am willing to consider the idea.

    If I could be guaranteed that everyone convicted was guilty, I would be more inclined to side with capital punishment.
    This is similar to my view. I believe the DP is used much too much for leverage and political ambition. Every single murder one case is now being threatened with capital punishment as leverage for the defendent to avoid it by taking a plea bargain. Often District Attorneys will push for the DP even in circumstantial cases, because a big DP win can mean promotion and recognition. I mean, execute someone based on circumstantial evidence?? But it has been done, and there are still people on death row who are innocent, I'm absolutely certain.

    Bottom line, I do not believe the DP should ever be on the table except for the most heinous multiple murders, when there is literally no doubt of innocence... like when cops find a dozen bodies buried under the floorboards. Serial killers and mass murderers, with overwhelming physical and DNA evidence... now we're talking about realistic death penalty cases.

    We need to severely restrict the ability to bring DP cases to court so that when we do so, there can be no doubt that the individual is guilty of mass murder, and is legally sane.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 02-20-11 at 11:56 PM.

  8. #268
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    This is similar to my view. I believe the DP is used much too much for leverage and political ambition. Every single murder one case is now being threatened with capital punishment as leverage for the defendent to avoid it by taking a plea bargain. Often District Attorneys will push for the DP even in circumstantial cases, because a big DP win can mean promotion and recognition. I mean, execute someone based on circumstantial evidence?? But it has been done, and there are still people on death row who are innocent, I'm absolutely certain.

    Bottom line, I do not believe the DP should ever be on the table except for the most heinous multiple murders, which there is literally no doubt of innocence... like when cops find a dozen bodies buried under the floorboards. Serial killers and mass murderers, with overwhelming physical and DNA evidence... now we're talking about realistic death penalty cases.

    We need to severely restrict the ability to bring DP cases to court so that when we do so, there can be no doubt that the individual is guilty of mass murder, and is legally sane.
    You said it much more eloquently than I did.

    But then you have those like Tucker Carlson who believe Michael Vick should have been executed for dog fighting.
    Tucker Carlson: Michael Vick Deserves to Die - Sports Blog - CBS News

    "I'm a Christian, I've made mistakes myself, I believe fervently in second chances. But Michael Vick killed dogs, and he did in a heartless and cruel way. And I think, personally, he should've been executed for that. He wasn't, but the idea that the President of the United States would be getting behind someone who murdered dogs? Kind of beyond the pale."
    These are the people that give us our news and these are the people that sway public opinion.

  9. #269
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Of course there are many different arguments for the death penalty and the last few posts have avoided the "you whiney liberals love child killers' bollocks that many arguments shelter under.

    Temporal lobe epilepsy used to exempt one from the Death Penalty in the UK as it could lead to momentary loss of control. It did not mean that you got locked up though. A diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy is not a clear cut thing. There is no such thing as a "clear mental condition", especially in the most heinous crimes. The USA continually executes mentally subnormal people. Clinton sent an insane person to his death, for public popularity.

    And look how everyone disagrees on which crimes should be capital crimes. Some believe that insane people should not be executed. And yet clearly "the most heinous" crimes are commited by nutters - serial killers, child killers etc.. virtually no mass murderer is "sane". So when we punish them we do so from a completely different moral vantage point. We knew right from wrong and execute them as if they knew it just like us.

    Others would execute them in a heartbeat regarding questions of their mental state as 'liberal whining" or such like.

    So it would be drug dealers - everyone hates them. But who knows the circumstances of the death? Was it really a scumbag with no value for human life, or was it gun toting bravado that went wrong? Some kid out of their depth. Who decides? How is the Court not fallible in this?

    You know talking of gangs and deterrents: joining a gang in some areas is almost an act of suicide and yet it doesn't stop people. These highly abnormal social groups do not have a sense of long term consequence, and so for them there can be no deterrent. Getting caught and imprisoned is no different from being shot. It's the end of your life. No deterrent.

    So even though a majority of people believe in the DP, there is very little agreement on who should get it. The majority usually disagree with the status quo, one way or another.
    Last edited by Plato; 02-21-11 at 05:59 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  10. #270
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    And yet clearly "the most heinous" crimes are commited by nutters - serial killers, child killers etc.. virtually no mass murderer is "sane". So when we punish them we do so from a completely different moral vantage point. We knew right from wrong and execute them as if they knew it just like us.
    This is not true, and it doesn't really help our anti-DP case to believe that it is. You do not have to be insane to step over the line into killing and heinous acts. Psychiatry draws a clear line between mental illness and personality disorders. One is not the other. One can understand the distinctions between right and wrong and, while not necessarily empathising with their victims, can recognise the consequences of their violent actions. The others cannot. I am as anti- the death penalty as you, but we only win the argument if we concentrate on rational and ethical, rather than ad hominem, arguments.
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