View Poll Results: What do you think of Capital Punishment?

Voters
100. You may not vote on this poll
  • Support it

    50 50.00%
  • Condone it

    21 21.00%
  • Neutral

    2 2.00%
  • other (explain)

    27 27.00%
Page 25 of 34 FirstFirst ... 152324252627 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 250 of 331

Thread: Capital Punishment

  1. #241
    Stigmatized! End R Word! Kali's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Last Seen
    08-19-12 @ 12:29 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    13,334
    Blog Entries
    7

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    You really believe this drivel? That psychos and schizophrenics will suddenly become respectable God fearing citizens if you kill even more of them? Maybe if you say it enough and convince yourself of the effeminacy of us inadequates who disagree with you, you can make it so?
    Well yes I do believe it and sorry you consider my posts as drivel
    ~Following My Own Flow~

  2. #242
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Everywhere and Nowhere
    Last Seen
    03-07-12 @ 03:28 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,692

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Seems like most angles have been covered already, but I'm new to DP so I might as well make my stance on this known.

    I'm not necessarily against capital punishment from a moral standpoint. There seem to be some pretty messed up individuals out there and I feel better knowing that they are six feet under.

    Ultimately though I'm against capital punishment because it's no longer a cost effective way of dealing with inmates. We have pretty high efficiency jails that mobilizes inmates into effective labour forces now, including even the most violent offenders. The appeals process of the death penalty costs millions upon millions of dollars. Some say that the solution to this is to just make appealing more difficult, but I'm against that because I'm against reducing the effectiveness of the justice system to determine guilt and protect the innocent.

    If someone is damned guilty, then it will be figured out eventually, and if that takes millions of dollars then so be it. But it's still a waste of money. Send them to work and forget about it. The main reason why most countries used to kill people in the western world is because the jails got full or people were just outraged. If it's not about revenge and it's not about jails being full, then I don't see a reason to do it. I'm a fiscal conservative most of the time and this seems like a waste. You can keep them in jail for life for less money than it takes to finally get them to the death chair.

  3. #243
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    That's all of Europe! Simply cherry-picking the five most westernized nations, such as UK, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, doesn't quite cut it. Not unless we get to cut out a bunch of states with high homicide rates, and pretend they're not really part of the USA!

    That's the problem with using statistics to prove a point. They are too easily manipulated and skewered to be of value, unless the underlying data has been scrupulously and meticulously validated. For example, if we were to simply view "Total Crimes per capita by Country), poor New Zealand is the #2 worst in the world! Poor innocent Denmark comes in at #4! The UK is #6, and the USA below them all at #8.

    It's okay to be against the death penalty. A lot of Americans certainly are.

    But when one pits Europe against the USA based on statistics, i.e. "...the country with the highest murder rates in the advanced world...", and seven European countries have statistically higher murder rates than the USA, then what we have here is statiscally unsubstantiated hyperbole delivered in a condescending, aggressive and sarcastic style that probably won't serve you well here.
    DiAnna, I agree with you on the tone and style of Plato's post, he's new here, I hope he learns that heavy rhetoric and sarcasm aren't great debate winners around here.

    I do have to take you up on this last paragraph of yours, however. I assume you were taking your statistic from this list:
    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In it, there are indeed seven European countries with high intentional homicide rates than the US, two of which are EU members (Estonia and Lithuania). I doubt Plato was referring to these countries when he was speaking of Europe. He should have been much more precise. You must concede that western European, or EU nations generally have a much lower rate of intentional homicide than the US. It really doesn't help your case, if indeed it IS your case, to compare the US with the likes of Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus and Moldova, all mired in endemic corruption, violence and social breakdown.

    I don't understand this point, I'm afraid.
    That's all of Europe! Simply cherry-picking the five most westernized nations, such as UK, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, doesn't quite cut it. Not unless we get to cut out a bunch of states with high homicide rates, and pretend they're not really part of the USA!
    Why wouldn't you pick those countries and compare both their individual homicide rates and their collective homicide rates? Why not pick the most westernized countries to compare with the most westernized country in the world? The populations kind of work too.

    USA: pop. 300 million
    UK: pop. 60m
    Germany: pop. 90m
    Italy: pop. 60m
    France: pop. 60m
    Spain: pop. 45m
    Total of Euro 5 = 315 million

    What's unfair about that? The US has a GDP higher than all of those countries, why would you give a pass to the bigger states with a higher crime rate?

    You are quite right however, you cannot say the US has a worse homicide rate than Europe, unless you define what you mean by Europe. But I don't think it's a stretch for Plato to claim:
    the country with the highest murder rates in the advanced world is God's country.
    I assume he's referring the US (although all true-born Yorkshiremen grow up knowing that they come from 'God's Own Country'TM) I don't think, even for rhetorical purposes, we could include Georgia, Russia or Moldova in a list of the most advanced nations. Added to this, 2 of the 7, Russia and Belarus retain the death penalty.

    Plato is quite wrong, and really ought to have read the rest of the thread before blustering, that the DP defendants in the main use the deterrent argument. Badmutha may do, but he's really not much of a player in this debate thread.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  4. #244
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Comparing statistics in the USA with individual countries in Europe is disingenuous, because of the immense population difference. If one truly wanted to compare apples to apples... the per capita murder statistic for entire population of Europe... one must total the number of homicides in the whole of Europe compared with the total population of the whole of Europe.

    That's all of Europe! Simply cherry-picking the five most westernized nations, such as UK, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, doesn't quite cut it. Not unless we get to cut out a bunch of states with high homicide rates, and pretend they're not really part of the USA!

    That's the problem with using statistics to prove a point. They are too easily manipulated and skewered to be of value, unless the underlying data has been scrupulously and meticulously validated. For example, if we were to simply view "Total Crimes per capita by Country), poor New Zealand is the #2 worst in the world! Poor innocent Denmark comes in at #4! The UK is #6, and the USA below them all at #8.

    It's okay to be against the death penalty. A lot of Americans certainly are.

    But when one pits Europe against the USA based on statistics, i.e. "...the country with the highest murder rates in the advanced world...", and seven European countries have statistically higher murder rates than the USA, then what we have here is statiscally unsubstantiated hyperbole delivered in a condescending, aggressive and sarcastic style that probably won't serve you well here.

    I'm just sayin'.
    The style is suitable for the post I was responding to. Perhaps you could look at that piece if crap and tell me how it deserved an intellectual response?

    As to the "statistics" argument I am gobsmacked! We are talking about capital crimes, not all crime. Crime statistics are distorted by what gets reported. Murders are generally the least skewed by this factor.

    This is not about geography. It would be sufficient to just compare the USA with the UK. And the murder RATE ( which is exactly what you describe) is far lower per head of the population than in the USA. In the UK it could be argued that not having a routinely armed police force may be a factor in reduced gun crime. So you may need a sample that includes countries with armed police forces. So if you want to have a sample bigger than sixty million people to compare with then you compare with those nations which gave broadly similar sociology political systems and history, which would be the old EU before the inclusion of the communist countries. The murder rate would similarly be miles lower. Even if you wanted to include the present EU, including former communist countries (why would you do that?) the murder rate would be miles lower. The USA has to realize that it has a murder problem completely out of proportion to the rest of the free world. Maybe it could learn if it wasn't so bloody arrogant about it's own superiority.
    Last edited by Plato; 02-15-11 at 06:27 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  5. #245
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Well yes I do believe it and sorry you consider my posts as drivel
    It's drivel because it is plainly nonsensical that a threat of punishment would turn psychopaths into saints. But maybe if you could explain how, I might be able to see the counter intuitive genius behind your thesis and acknowledge my mistake.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  6. #246
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    DiAnna, I agree with you on the tone and style of Plato's post, he's new here, I hope he learns that heavy rhetoric and sarcasm aren't great debate winners around here.

    I do have to take you up on this last paragraph of yours, however. I assume you were taking your statistic from this list:
    List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In it, there are indeed seven European countries with high intentional homicide rates than the US, two of which are EU members (Estonia and Lithuania). I doubt Plato was referring to these countries when he was speaking of Europe. He should have been much more precise. You must concede that western European, or EU nations generally have a much lower rate of intentional homicide than the US. It really doesn't help your case, if indeed it IS your case, to compare the US with the likes of Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus and Moldova, all mired in endemic corruption, violence and social breakdown.

    I don't understand this point, I'm afraid.

    Why wouldn't you pick those countries and compare both their individual homicide rates and their collective homicide rates? Why not pick the most westernized countries to compare with the most westernized country in the world? The populations kind of work too.

    USA: pop. 300 million
    UK: pop. 60m
    Germany: pop. 90m
    Italy: pop. 60m
    France: pop. 60m
    Spain: pop. 45m
    Total of Euro 5 = 315 million

    What's unfair about that? The US has a GDP higher than all of those countries, why would you give a pass to the bigger states with a higher crime rate?

    You are quite right however, you cannot say the US has a worse homicide rate than Europe, unless you define what you mean by Europe. But I don't think it's a stretch for Plato to claim: I assume he's referring the US (although all true-born Yorkshiremen grow up knowing that they come from 'God's Own Country'TM) I don't think, even for rhetorical purposes, we could include Georgia, Russia or Moldova in a list of the most advanced nations. Added to this, 2 of the 7, Russia and Belarus retain the death penalty.

    Plato is quite wrong, and really ought to have read the rest of the thread before blustering, that the DP defendants in the main use the deterrent argument. Badmutha may do, but he's really not much of a player in this debate thread.
    Your argument is spot on. The European nations which were part of the post WW2 free world are the most relevant comparison. Although upu could just take any of those democracies by themselves. Introducing countries with post communist gangster mafia is not a useful comparator. My post was only to badmutha. I ascribe no views to "the majority". And I was born on Yorkshire. I understand that people from Maine claim a divine neighbour too. I expect he was a Pilgrim from Whitby.

    I'll rest my case.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  7. #247
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Seen
    02-24-14 @ 01:55 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    421

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Its simple, Capital Punishment was first instituted by God for the premeditated act of spilling innocent blood (Genesis 9:6). Physically punishing the wicked and evil mind is perfectly moral. Most progressives are simply being politically correct when they protest Capital Punishment yet turn around and endorse institutional slavery (prison) by the state as an acceptable form of punishment.

    They can offer no logical and reasoned argument why they support slavery and condemn capital punishment other than the the typical "feel good" emotional positions adhered by all progressives based not upon logic but "feeling"...i.e., its unkind, its unloving, its inhumane..etc., yet these same people through proxy of towing a political line support Abortion on Demand while defending Islamic fundamentalism and Sharia Law.

  8. #248
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New Orleans
    Last Seen
    05-06-11 @ 07:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    3,082

    Re: Capital Punishment

    I approve of it as long as it's not too severe.

  9. #249
    Advisor Arcadius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Somewhere far away.
    Last Seen
    10-27-11 @ 07:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    390

    Re: Capital Punishment

    Kill the killers because killing is wrong. I'm not seeing the logic in that. If you're going to say an action is wrong, and that people who do it are evil, doesn't it negate the legitimacy of that notion when you perform the act that you say to be wrong?
    Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.~ Ernest Hemingway

  10. #250
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Here be Dragons
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Its simple, Capital Punishment was first instituted by God for the premeditated act of spilling innocent blood (Genesis 9:6). Physically punishing the wicked and evil mind is perfectly moral. Most progressives are simply being politically correct when they protest Capital Punishment yet turn around and endorse institutional slavery (prison) by the state as an acceptable form of punishment.

    They can offer no logical and reasoned argument why they support slavery and condemn capital punishment other than the the typical "feel good" emotional positions adhered by all progressives based not upon logic but "feeling"...i.e., its unkind, its unloving, its inhumane..etc., yet these same people through proxy of towing a political line support Abortion on Demand while defending Islamic fundamentalism and Sharia Law.
    Already dealt with.

    Christ repudiated the OT and told us to turn the other cheek, not to judge our brothers and to put down the stones of capital punishment. I am sure you can spin it but Christ told us we have no right to punish anyone.

    Imprisonment is only acceptable as a means of protecting society or rehabilitating a criminal. Any punishment is against Christian teaching. Christ told us to love, and particularly those in prison. It is utterly hypocritical for Christians to call for punishment, capital or otherwise. As members of society we are entitled to restrain people or reform them. We are not permitted to punish. We are commanded to love all God's creatures.

    In the case of atheists who argue that selfishness and vengeance are perfectly acceptable motivators, it is more difficult to find an argument. But for Christians the New Testament teaching is clear.

    Oh no, i just read the last bit of the above post properly. I suppose I should have realized the gookiness of this drivel when it argued that those of us who oppose capital punishment support Sharia law. Why did I even bother to answer this juvenile pap? Of course we think all executions are wrong except for those in Iran and Saudi Arabia. We just love a good stoning.

    Abusive adolescent horse****. Why do we have to put up with such tedious bollocks. Life's too short to be dealing with this kindergarten ****e.
    Last edited by Plato; 02-15-11 at 09:04 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

Page 25 of 34 FirstFirst ... 152324252627 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •