View Poll Results: What do you think of Capital Punishment?

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Thread: Capital Punishment

  1. #131
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Except that the statistics I provided show that it isn't. So your point is moot, and all you are left with is your bias against the death penalty in practice. I'm sorry you're squeamish about it. That is a luxury that the victims of violent crime and those who deal with violent criminals don't have.
    It doesn't strngthen your argument by misrepresenting my motivation as squeamishness - that's as baseless and intellectually dishonest as if I characterized yours as bloodthirsty and vengeful, which I haven't and wouldn't. I've a bit more respect for you than that. Your statistics however, taken from one Cornell study are not unequivocal nor without counter-intelligence with which to answer them.
    The Death Penalty in Black and White: Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Decides | Death Penalty Information Center


    Actually, it isn't, because the application of the death penalty is reserved for homicides with special circumstances. Thus, the death penalty is actually being applied TOWARD THE POSTER CHILDREN. As it should be.
    Were that true, you'd have used examples of death row poster kids who actually had been executed. As you know, neither Manson nor Berdella received it, but they were emotive names to throw into the hat.
    Once they've killed multiple people in heinous ways? Absolutely. It's cost/benefit decision. The potential costs/risks of keeping them alive far outweigh the intangible benefits of doing so.
    I'm pretty sure that CBA is not the method the Justice Department (or indeed any judiciary) has used to decide on penal policy. Nor should it be.
    Again, I'm sorry you're squeamish. You're allowed to be squeamish because other rough men are responsible for protecting you from these killers.
    Again, I'm sorry you wish to misrepresent my position as squeamishness. Let's stick to the arguments and not impugn the other's motives.
    ASPD is the proper term these days for what used to be called psychopathy.
    I believe that what used to be called psychopathy is now seen as a subset of ASPD, another of which is sociopathy. You originally referred to ASPD sufferers as 'psychotics'. ASPD is not a psychosis, I believe.
    Blacks commit most of their violence against other blacks. Ending up on death row has more to do with the race of their victims than any other factor. Those who commit heinous crimes against other blacks are less likely to end up on death row than those who commit heinous crimes against whites. In my opinion, the problem is not solved by eliminating death row, but by ensuring that the race of the victim does not play a role in sentencing.
    I'm not quite getting your argument here, but that might be because it's quite late here already and I've been at the computer for the past 7 hours. I'll reread the previous para and respond.

    I don't believe that the death penalty should be evaluated on the basis of a standard which is clearly not a measure of its aims. The goals of the death penalty are not to reduce overall crime. Thus, it's preventative effects are irrelevant. The goal of the death penalty is to remove people who pose an ongoing threat of serious harm to other human beings. It accomplishes that goal admirably, and that's the standard that it should be held to.



    The death penalty is only used in egregious cases where the offender himself is unlikely to be deterred from further harm. Expecting a penalty to have a deterrent effect in other cases is ridiculous. Criminals aren't deterred by other people's penalties. Thinking that they will be is a flaw in judgement and logic.

    The death penalty isn't designed to have impact on these areas. We know what works to deter lesser offenders. But those lesser offenders are unlikely to end up on death row, regardless.

    As far as the terms that you've used here, do you even understand what they mean in practice?
    What defenders of the DP may or may not define as its intrinsic purpose is neither here nor there. These functions are the functions of all punishment. Some may apply to certain forms, and others to others, but it is the purview of society as a whole to decide which punishments to ascribe to which offences. You simply stating that the DP has one and only one function - that of incapacitation - is your opinion, your bias, if you like. I'm arguing that the punishments meted out need to be analysed in terms of the whole spectrum of the role of punishment.

    Exactly how do you propose to prevent people with zero empathy from killing other human beings because it pleases them? What prevention measures would you put into place to prevent them from killing?
    Incarceration. As the majority of modern democratic societies prevent their most serious offenders from reoffending.
    Further, how would you go about using restorative justice with a family whose daughter has been hideously tortured by a psychopath? Please, elaborate your ideas.
    Forgive me, but this question is emotive. I did not say that every punishment has to fulfil every function that a punishment could fulfil. My point was that the function you ascribe to the DP is not the only function against which the DP must be gauged.
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  2. #132
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    People are often on death row or on a chain gang because they are poorly educated, black, hispanic, poor or living in the wrong state at the wrong time. Do you believe that justice is meted out fairly, equitably and delivers just and impartial verdicts? You might want to review your 'Very Liberal' lean statement.
    And you may wish to re-read my other post where I made it clear I am talking about people there is no doubt and/or they admit to it.

    You may also wish to refrain from trying to tell me how to label my ownself in the future.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    "I'm against capital punishment because the innocent have been killed. I'll have them serve life in prison instead."

  4. #134
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Juiposa View Post
    Thats basically what condoning an action is... :S
    No, it isn't. I hope someone mentioned this earlier:

    Definitions of condone on the Web:

    •excuse: excuse, overlook, or make allowances for; be lenient with; "excuse someone's behavior"; "She condoned her husband's occasional infidelities"
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    •To forgive, excuse or overlook (something); To allow, accept or permit (something); To forgive (marital infidelity or other marital offense)
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/condone

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  5. #135
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    It doesn't strngthen your argument by misrepresenting my motivation as squeamishness - that's as baseless and intellectually dishonest
    Don't lecture anyone else about being "baseless and intellectually dishonest" when you've said this of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Trouble is, your heart only appears to bleed for the victims of crimes committed by the poorly educated, or black, or hispanic, or poor criminals.Where's all the outrage about the victims of the rich and well-connected, well-represented criminals whose advantages get them off scot free from the consequences of their actions? It's as if the vicissitudes of the legal system don't really exist, that all is lovely and just and functional, when the world knows otherwise. For that reason it is not the progressives, worrying about miscarriages of justice, who are letting down the victims, it's those who are blasé about how well the system functions who are indifferent to the righteous demands of the victims. The victims of all crimes deserve justice, and justice is not served simply by ensuring that somebody pays a price for every crime, but that the right person pays for the right crime.
    Don't tell me I have no outrage over someone like Charles Manson, who should have been killed 30 years ago. I think it's interesting though that you spend a lot of time talking about victims in this post. I would like to know when victims started mattering to you all of a sudden.
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  6. #136
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Don't lecture anyone else about being "baseless and intellectually dishonest" when you've said this of me.

    Don't tell me I have no outrage over someone like Charles Manson, who should have been killed 30 years ago. I think it's interesting though that you spend a lot of time talking about victims in this post. I would like to know when victims started mattering to you all of a sudden.
    Okay, let's take it down a notch. I apologise for the commentabout you only caring about certain victims. It was probably written in a state of annoyance, and that's not the best time to make a cogent argument.

    I do maintain that amongst some, even many, DP defenders there is a degree of complacency about the way that the judicial system operates. Unlike the findings of the Cornell report Catz linked to, I think most studies and statistics show that the DP, in the States and in other countries where it is applied, is not applied equitably. As I said a few posts back, not only do I believe it is wrong in principle, I also believe that it is wrongly applied in practice and that the inability of any judiciary to administer it without serious questions about the justice of its application means that it should be abandoned. The alternatives to the DP are everywhere to be seen and analysed in modern, comparable societies.

    It is a fallacy to suggest that opposition to the DP is in any way disrespecting or discounting the needs of victims of crime. The argument holds no water and make no logical sense. Why you would suggest that
    victims started mattering to you all of a sudden
    when you have no idea what matters to me and when, is a bit of a mystery. Caring about the equitable and correct application of justice does make one incapable about caring about the rights and welfare of victms. That too is misrepresentation.
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Deterrents are only as effective as the punishment is harsh........

    .....the penalty of death for taking innocent life is both appropriate and necessary.
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  8. #138
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Badmutha View Post
    Deterrents are only as effective as the punishment is harsh........

    .....the penalty of death for taking innocent life is both appropriate and necessary.
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    .
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    .
    Any evidence it is a deterent?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #139
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Any evidence it is a deterent?
    Of course, there's a lot of evidence that it is not...

    Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  10. #140
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    Re: Capital Punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Of course, there's a lot of evidence that it is not...

    Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center
    I know. But people still act like it is.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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