National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

Good Guy said:

Not personally, but everyone knows Americanization is global.

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I'm done with you. You are ****ing brainwashed.

Juiposa said:

... What it gods name ...

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It's the future. A world government is what we need. There would be no more war or struggle. With a world government, we can pursue other interests, such as science and technology.

Juiposa said:

... What it gods name ...

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That's what I said....out loud....to my.....computer screen. Oh, bother.

Prediction: the libertarians will descend on this guy!

Good Guy said:

America is great country though, we are the caretakers of freedom and democracy. If you don't like it, you can attempt to change the government peacefully, which is an American idea. Because the people are in control of America's government.

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The besetting sin of representative democracies is their desire for conquest and inability to treat others by it's own ideals. The US destroys or creates democracies depending on how useful it is for them, nothing to do with the ideal of democracy.

The US is the first dominant or imperialist power to be global and the first dominant or imperialist power to speak the language of democracy. The US's actions have put the whole idea, the language and institutions of democracy on trial.

Like any imperialist power you will have your day and then you will be out. That day is drawing near.

We should be more concerned about China's views on democracy.

megaprogman said:

Prediction: the libertarians will descend on this guy!

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Who me?? I didn't do nuttin'

America will always be #1

Dutch said:

Who me?? I didn't do nuttin'

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I wasn't referring to you. Generally libertarians have a very strong reaction to the concept of a unified world government (and for reasons I agree with)

megaprogman said:

I have no problem calling an ideology bad if it routinely has acts performed in its name that are within the normal scope of the ideology (meaning not some fringe element) that I consider to be grossly evil. In the cases of Fascism and Communism, performing mass murder in the name of an ideology is a grossly evil act.

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Is mass murder expressly written into the ideologies of Fascism or Communism? I can vouch for Communism but I'm not terribly familiar with the exact nuts and bolts of Fascism, perhaps Kormir can provide more insight on that front.

I think we need to differentiate between an ideology and the people that follow/abuse it.

IE: Communism.

There is ZERO justification for the kind of Stalinist crackdowns and killings in the actual guts of the idea of Communism. These methods were how Stalin chose to deal with the problems associated with their particular situation, be they bad or good, they were not Communism.

Good Guy said:

America will always be #1

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Senatus Populusque Romanus?

I have a hard time with the idea that the populations of both Russia and China were a fringe minority.

megaprogman said:

I have a hard time with the idea that the populations of both Russia and China were a fringe minority.

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Never said they were, but we need to recognize their leadership as being so.

Extreme governments tend to attract two types of people; the wolves and coyotes. Wolves genuinely believe in the ideology and participate because of that belief. Coyotes participate because it's better to be on the inside of an extreme regime than the outside, they are there for benefits or protection.

I sincerely doubt that the majority of people within the government in places like North Korea or China are actually such hardliners, but it's dangerous NOT to be. What tends to happen is the same thing that happens in politics everywhere; a few hardliners lead the charge and others follow because they'll follow anything that feeds them or protects them. You may be a politician in North Korea, but do you really want to stick your neck out to try to change the system when you are as liable to get sent to a labor camp?

There was a line from A Man For All Seasons when King Henry is talking to Thomas More, "There are those like Norfolk who follow me because I wear the crown, those like Master Cromwell who follow me because they are jackals with sharp teeth and I'm their tiger, there's a mass that follows me because it follows anything that moves."

So it goes with extreme regimes.

Hoplite said:

Is mass murder expressly written into the ideologies of Fascism or Communism? I can vouch for Communism but I'm not terribly familiar with the exact nuts and bolts of Fascism, perhaps Kormir can provide more insight on that front.

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Historically, in general, yes. Communism the same.
Wiki: They advocate the creation of a single-party state.[17] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[18] They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[19]

Communism is the same, only more subtle. In practice the communist nations relative to democratic/capitalist nations had a lot more human rights abuses, mass starvation, etc. As to the written doctrine, it's in there, it's just that people don't seem to put two and two together. A communist government is run by a single party, and other political parties, ideas, etc., are incompatible, and thus, not allowed. In practice, a ruling party will end up using force to put down the percentage of the population that wants freedom from the tyranny of a single party state. Furthermore, the economic tyranny will likewise create opponents who want to grow rice on their own land, which is illegal and will be dealt with, typically via force, etc.

Put on your philosophy cap and then look at a more free system, like the U.S. Right now, you, Hoplite, advocate of socialism, can create a mini-socialist environment, inside the borders of the U.S. You can buy up the land, attract and educate followers, set forth the rules for how your inner economy works, put the workers in charge, etc. That's why we go gaga over freedom...because it rocks. Communism, will not tolerate a capitalistic mini-economy, for example, its' simply incompatible.

I think we need to differentiate between an ideology and the people that follow/abuse it.

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You can't. Ideology is like a hypothesis. Experiment/evidence is like applying it to the people.
Communism was a hypothesis, they attempted the experiments in human societies, and met with disastrous results.

Trying to separate the two would be like trying to separate scientific hypothesis from experimentation and evidence/analysis. You'd end up with meaningless claims.

What do you think social scientists do...refuse to look at real life evidence and prefer just the hypothesis?

Mach said:

Communism is the same, only more subtle. In practice the communist nations relative to democratic/capitalist nations had a lot more human rights abuses, mass starvation, etc.

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You...basically ignored my entire post which dealt with this.

Good Guy said:

America will always be #1

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Of that I'm fairly certain. Still, the question remains, the number one.......what?

alexa said:

The besetting sin of representative democracies is their desire for conquest and inability to treat others by it's own ideals. The US destroys or creates democracies depending on how useful it is for them, nothing to do with the ideal of democracy.

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Apparently you are unaware of; national socialists, communists, monarchies, and starbucks franchise owners.

The US is the first dominant or imperialist power to be global and the first dominant or imperialist power to speak the language of democracy. The US's actions have put the whole idea, the language and institutions of democracy on trial.

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Nope, that would be mesopotamia.

Like any imperialist power you will have your day and then you will be out. That day is drawing near.

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mmmwwwwaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!! :shock:

We should be more concerned about China's views on democracy.

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Ummmm, they don't like it. They like tanks.

Hoplite said:

There is ZERO justification for the kind of Stalinist crackdowns and killings in the actual guts of the idea of Communism. These methods were how Stalin chose to deal with the problems associated with their particular situation, be they bad or good, they were not Communism.

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Hoplite said:

Never said they were, but we need to recognize their leadership as being so.

Extreme governments tend to attract two types of people; the wolves and coyotes. Wolves genuinely believe in the ideology and participate because of that belief. Coyotes participate because it's better to be on the inside of an extreme regime than the outside, they are there for benefits or protection.

I sincerely doubt that the majority of people within the government in places like North Korea or China are actually such hardliners, but it's dangerous NOT to be. What tends to happen is the same thing that happens in politics everywhere; a few hardliners lead the charge and others follow because they'll follow anything that feeds them or protects them. You may be a politician in North Korea, but do you really want to stick your neck out to try to change the system when you are as liable to get sent to a labor camp?

There was a line from A Man For All Seasons when King Henry is talking to Thomas More, "There are those like Norfolk who follow me because I wear the crown, those like Master Cromwell who follow me because they are jackals with sharp teeth and I'm their tiger, there's a mass that follows me because it follows anything that moves."

So it goes with extreme regimes.

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You know that during the Stalin years there were systems in place where prisoners and workers of the GULAG system could voice complaints against conditions and against specific individuals, which actually did lead to some changes or prosecutions on a frequent basis.

It depends. Extremist ideologies are bad (those that say kill the infidels/non-believers). However, socialism and communism aren't inherently evil for what they stand for. They have just been executed by evil people.

Khayembii Communique said:

You know that during the Stalin years there were systems in place where prisoners and workers of the GULAG system could voice complaints against conditions and against specific individuals, which actually did lead to some changes or prosecutions on a frequent basis.

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Nope, hadn't heard of that one. Did you hear the one about stalin killing off some millions upon millions of his compadres thru purges, torture, gulags, and incompetence in running the war tho? Didja' hear that one?

digsbe said:

It depends. Extremist ideologies are bad (those that say kill the infidels/non-believers). However, socialism and communism aren't inherently evil for what they stand for. They have just been executed by evil people.

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Communism doesn't kill people, just evil......communist......people.....kil.....:roll:

Dutch said:

Communism doesn't kill people, just evil......communist......people.....kil.....:roll:

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Communism is an ideology. It doesn't kill people. Those who have tried to enforce that ideology have done so through the shedding of blood. However, the communist ideology does not kill people.

Khayembii Communique said:

You know that during the Stalin years there were systems in place where prisoners and workers of the GULAG system could voice complaints against conditions and against specific individuals, which actually did lead to some changes or prosecutions on a frequent basis.

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Be that as it may, I think we can agree that the Soviet system was far from ideal and it took roads that any system designed to work for the people should not take.

digsbe said:

Communism is an ideology. It doesn't kill people. Those who have tried to enforce that ideology have done so through the shedding of blood. However, the communist ideology does not kill people.

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Yeah, I picked up on that point. Communism, marxism, ect... was/is an economic model, that doesn't work. That's just about all it is.

Nope, hadn't heard of that one. Did you hear the one about stalin killing off some millions upon millions of his compadres thru purges, torture, gulags, and incompetence in running the war tho? Didja' hear that one?

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I don't think Stalin killed anyone, actually.

Be that as it may, I think we can agree that the Soviet system was far from ideal and it took roads that any system designed to work for the people should not take.

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Well obviously, but I was just countering the conservative myth that the USSR was a totalitarian, Manichean place where all dissent is completely crushed and everyone is constantly watched by the police 24/7. They think that eveyone died out of the sinister motives of the state when the reality is that they died due to its inefficiency and contradictions.

Of course when you point out the reality instead of the myth you get accused of defending it and then they start going on about how you're claiming that it was a utopia, which I'm expecting will happen somewhere on this page or the next...

Good Guy said:

A political ideology cannot be bad or good. Albeit, we have never seen a good communistKarl Marx's philosophy was only partially employed by the communists or National Socialist country, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ideologies are bad. National Socialism is an extreme love for ones country, and putting one's nation before oneself, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Extremism is not a good thing.I'm not a communist, Nazi, socialist, fascist, or anything like that though. It all depends on how said ideology is applied. There can be a tyrannical democracy and there can also be a fair authoritarian.Very difficult but possible

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Extremism is the problem.
We get carried away and things get out of balance.
A good example was the conservatives roll back of regulations during the Reagan and Bush years.

Dutch said:

Yeah, I picked up on that point. Communism, marxism, ect... was/is an economic model, that doesn't work. That's just about all it is.

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It depends on what you qualify as "work." I agree that it's not the best for economic growth. However, for those who value income equality it does work. This being said, I do not support either ideology.