View Poll Results: Can an idealogy be bad?

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  • no

    4 8.70%
  • yes

    34 73.91%
  • depends (let me explain)

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Thread: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

  1. #81
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    What war? They couldn't produce and distribute goods and services despite having tons of natural resources. That's pretty much all marx had mind.



    Au contraire, North korea is a communist monarchy. Here's how you can tell;


    Add to this the simple fact everyone has the same status, ie.... starving. and you have the only functioning example of marxism in the known universe.
    Communist dictatorship, not communist monarchy.

  2. #82
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The Cold War...

    The official government classification is a Jeuche Republic with a single party system. The country has a leader worship state religion and his policies are more dictatorial than they are communistic. If it was true communism you would see the government handing money out to the citizens, not taking it all while they starve. North Korea is not a proper depiction of communism. However, it is a good depiction of how there is still massive evils in this world.
    A pattern repeated throughout the communist world.



    China is also a single party communist nation. Right now it has a growing economy (which will burst as it is a bubble). Communism is not good for economic growth and economic freedom. However, communism in it's purest form uncorrupted by human nature is somewhat of a utopia where everyone has equal income and there is no poverty and hunger. This is unrealistic, but that's what pure communism is and desires to achieve.

    I get it, communism is fine, it's people that are the problem. That kinda' limits is applicability on a planet peopled by, well people, doesn't it.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

  3. #83
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    It's been about 20 years since I read it, but I recall Russell Kirk's definition of the term, ideology. I always think of it when I hear the word used, and I try to use it accordingly.

    '"Ideology does not mean political theory or principle, even though many journalists and some professors commonly employ the term in that sense. Ideology really means political fanaticism- and more precisely, the belief that this world of ours may be converted into the Terrestrial Paradise through the operation of positive law and positive planning. The ideologue- Communist or Nazi or of whatever affiliation- maintains that human nature and society may be perfected by mundane, secular means, though these means ordinarily involve violent social revolution. The ideologue immanentizes religious symbols and inverts religious doctrines."
    - Russell Kirk Enemies of the Permanent Things
    If we accept that definiton, which to my mind describes communism and modern liberalism beautifully, then yes. Ideology = badness.

    Maybe the term political values might be a better descriptor of what most people mean when they say ideology.
    Last edited by LuckyDan; 01-21-11 at 09:10 PM.

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    It's been about 20 years since I read it, but I recall Russell Kirk's definition of the term, ideology. I always think of it when I hear the word used, and I try to use it accordingly.



    If we accept that definiton, which to my mind describes communism and modern liberalism beautifully, then yes. Ideology = badness.

    Maybe the term political values might be a better descriptor of what most people mean when they say ideology.
    I prefer the term political values.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    It's been about 20 years since I read it, but I recall Russell Kirk's definition of the term, ideology. I always think of it when I hear the word used, and I try to use it accordingly.
    That's a terrible definition. Everyone is ideological, an idealogue. An ideology is simply a world view constructed from experience and action as an agent of history.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    That's a terrible definition. Everyone is ideological, an idealogue. An ideology is simply a world view constructed from experience and action as an agent of history.
    That's what it has come to mean, yes, but I think it is important to consider what the term denoted when it was coined in the 19th century, considering the political movements that adhered to it and the bloody dictators that arose from them.

    Reading up on it again, I just came across a quote from John Adams, who defined ideology as "the science of idiocy."

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I prefer the term political values.
    I do too, for our purposes here especially. I don't consider myself a political theorist, as Kirk was, but like anyone else who is paying attention, I do have political values.

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Guy View Post
    A political ideology cannot be bad or good. Albeit, we have never seen a good communist or National Socialist country, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ideologies are bad. National Socialism is an extreme love for ones country, and putting one's nation before oneself, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm not a communist, Nazi, socialist, fascist, or anything like that though. It all depends on how said ideology is applied. There can be a tyrannical democracy and there can also be a fair authoritarian.
    This coming from a guy who asked if genocide would be acceptable under certain conditions.

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    I am assuming this post is a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Apparently you are unaware of; national socialists, communists, monarchies, and starbucks franchise owners.
    Your attempted insult has no relevence to what it is in reply to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Nope, that would be mesopotamia.
    Well good on you to have discovered that the earliest democracies came from the Iran/Iraq regions. Showing off your knowledge on this does not change the reality that the US is the first dominant power which is global and which speaks the language of democracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post


    Ummmm, they don't like it. They like tanks.


    Tienanmen Square is some time ago now. I am sorry you have no more recent idea of how things are in China which has changed enormously since this time. For many years they have been quieting the masses with talks that they are thinking over the best form of democracy. I understand they have come up with a concept called 'people's democracy' which I have not read but which has raised a few eyebrows.

    It looks more likely that instead of democracy they will continue as they did at Tienanmen Square and as they still do now. Ending protests with the police or army. The point was that it might do well to consider how a dominant world power with this frame of reference would influence the world.
    Last edited by alexa; 01-22-11 at 10:22 AM.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  10. #90
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Juiposa View Post
    I agree with you that National Socialism and Communism have been tabooed, and that if run by a moral person, they wouldn't as bad as we stereotype them to be. But the question that, "Can a ideology be bad?" Absolutely it can. Nazism is a terrible ideology, so Stalinism and Moaism. Imperialism and other things are terrible things.
    But Stalinism and Moaism are the logical conclusion of a communist system. History has shown us that when a government of society have absolute power over there people sooner or later they commit crimes against humanity. These system of rule will never work because of one thing... Human nature.

    Were the people of Russia better off after the Czars were overthrown or were they better off after the U.S.S.R collapse? Was Germany better off with the Nazis in power? Was Italy better off with Fascism? Were the citizens of South Vietnam better off after the North conquered them? Were the Chinese better off after they become communist ( ask the students at Tiananmen Square)? Any system of rule that gives the Rulers absoulete power will eventual turn into some form Nazism, Stalinism, Moaism and etc.

    So in conclusion National Socialism and Communism are inherently bad. They deprive there citizens there rights and freedom. Make the people dependent on the government when it should be the other way around.


    Absolute power corrupts Absolutely my Communist Canadian friend.

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