View Poll Results: Can an idealogy be bad?

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Thread: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

  1. #71
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    You know that during the Stalin years there were systems in place where prisoners and workers of the GULAG system could voice complaints against conditions and against specific individuals, which actually did lead to some changes or prosecutions on a frequent basis.
    Be that as it may, I think we can agree that the Soviet system was far from ideal and it took roads that any system designed to work for the people should not take.
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Communism is an ideology. It doesn't kill people. Those who have tried to enforce that ideology have done so through the shedding of blood. However, the communist ideology does not kill people.
    Yeah, I picked up on that point. Communism, marxism, ect... was/is an economic model, that doesn't work. That's just about all it is.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Nope, hadn't heard of that one. Did you hear the one about stalin killing off some millions upon millions of his compadres thru purges, torture, gulags, and incompetence in running the war tho? Didja' hear that one?
    I don't think Stalin killed anyone, actually.

    Be that as it may, I think we can agree that the Soviet system was far from ideal and it took roads that any system designed to work for the people should not take.
    Well obviously, but I was just countering the conservative myth that the USSR was a totalitarian, Manichean place where all dissent is completely crushed and everyone is constantly watched by the police 24/7. They think that eveyone died out of the sinister motives of the state when the reality is that they died due to its inefficiency and contradictions.

    Of course when you point out the reality instead of the myth you get accused of defending it and then they start going on about how you're claiming that it was a utopia, which I'm expecting will happen somewhere on this page or the next...
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 01-21-11 at 05:48 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Guy View Post
    A political ideology cannot be bad or good. Albeit, we have never seen a good communistKarl Marx's philosophy was only partially employed by the communists or National Socialist country, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ideologies are bad. National Socialism is an extreme love for ones country, and putting one's nation before oneself, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Extremism is not a good thing.I'm not a communist, Nazi, socialist, fascist, or anything like that though. It all depends on how said ideology is applied. There can be a tyrannical democracy and there can also be a fair authoritarian.Very difficult but possible
    Extremism is the problem.
    We get carried away and things get out of balance.
    A good example was the conservatives roll back of regulations during the Reagan and Bush years.

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Yeah, I picked up on that point. Communism, marxism, ect... was/is an economic model, that doesn't work. That's just about all it is.
    It depends on what you qualify as "work." I agree that it's not the best for economic growth. However, for those who value income equality it does work. This being said, I do not support either ideology.
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I don't think Stalin killed anyone, actually.


    Why, of course not. It was all just a big misunderstanding.


    source
    The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, literal translation Death by hunger) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR, part of the Soviet famine of 19321933.[dubious discuss] During the famine, which is also known as the "terror-famine in Ukraine" and "famine-genocide in Ukraine",[1][2][3] millions of Ukrainians died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[4]

    Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly; anywhere from 1.5[5] to 12 million [6][broken citation] ethnic Ukrainians were said to have been killed as a result of the famine. Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4[7] and 4 million[8][9] deaths inside Ukraine, and up to 5 million if about 1 million deaths in heavily Ukrainian-populated Kuban are included.[10] The demographic deficit caused by unborn or unrecorded births is said to be as high as 6 million.[8] The older, higher estimates are still often cited in political commentary.[11]
    source
    The Great Purge was a series of campaigns of political repression and persecution in the Soviet Union orchestrated by Joseph Stalin in 19361938.[1][2] It involved a large-scale purge of the Communist Party and Government officials, repression of peasants, Red Army leadership, and the persecution of unaffiliated persons, characterized by widespread police surveillance, widespread suspicion of "saboteurs", imprisonment, and executions.[1] In Russian historiography the period of the most intense purge, 19371938, is called Yezhovshchina (Russian: Ежовщина; literally, the Yezhov regime), after Nikolai Yezhov, the head of the Soviet secret police, NKVD.......

    .....According to Nikita Khrushchev's 1956 speech, "On the Personality Cult and its Consequences", and more recent findings, a great number of accusations, notably those presented at the Moscow show trials, were based on forced confessions, often obtained by torture,[4] and on loose interpretations of Article 58 of the RSFSR Penal Code, which dealt with counter-revolutionary crimes. Due legal process, as defined by Soviet law in force at the time, was often largely replaced with summary proceedings by NKVD troikas.[5]

    Hundreds of thousands of victims were accused of various political crimes (espionage, wrecking, sabotage, anti-Soviet agitation, conspiracies to prepare uprisings and coups) and then executed by shooting, or sent to the Gulag labor camps. Many died at the penal labor camps due to starvation, disease, exposure, and overwork. Other methods of dispatching victims were used on an experimental basis. One secret policeman, for example, gassed people to death in batches in the back of a specially adapted airtight van.[6][7]

    The Great Purge was started under the NKVD chief Genrikh Yagoda, but the height of the campaigns occurred while the NKVD was headed by Nikolai Yezhov, from September 1936 to August 1938, hence the name "Yezhovshchina". The campaigns were carried out according to the general line, and often by direct orders, of the Party Politburo headed by Stalin.......
    source
    .......In November 2010, the Russian State Duma approved a declaration blaming Stalin, amongst other officials, for having personally ordered the Katyn massacre.......[11]
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    It depends on what you qualify as "work." I agree that it's not the best for economic growth. However, for those who value income equality it does work. This being said, I do not support either ideology.
    Well, by work I meant the absence of failure. For instance the collapse of the soviet union in spite of the fact they were awash in natual resources. The communist regime in china has adopted, capitalism, as an economic system. The north korean regime has probably come as close to income equality as any nation on earth, almost all of it's inhabitants are starving, equally, together, in a communist monarchy. I'd have to stand on the side of those who feel communism, as an economic model, is pretty much a non sequiter.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    Well, by work I meant the absence of failure. For instance the collapse of the soviet union in spite of the fact they were awash in natual resources. The communist regime in china has adopted, capitalism, as an economic system. The north korean regime has probably come as close to income equality as any nation on earth, almost all of it's inhabitants are starving, equally, together, in a communist monarchy. I'd have to stand on the side of those who feel communism, as an economic model, is pretty much a non sequiter.
    The Soviet Union collapsed due to the Cold War as well. North Korea is a dictatorship, they don't hold to the true principals of communism as they set their leader up to be a god where it's not about equal prosperity for all, but starvation for everyone while the government absorbs all the wealth. I'm not defending communism, I'm just saying that North Korea is not a good example.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The Soviet Union collapsed due to the Cold War as well.
    What war? They couldn't produce and distribute goods and services despite having tons of natural resources. That's pretty much all marx had mind.

    North Korea is a dictatorship, they don't hold to the true principals of communism as they set their leader up to be a god where it's not about equal prosperity for all, but starvation for everyone while the government absorbs all the wealth. I'm not defending communism, I'm just saying that North Korea is not a good example.
    Au contraire, North korea is a communist monarchy. Here's how you can tell;
    monarchy [ˈmɒnəkɪ]
    n pl -chies
    1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a form of government in which supreme authority is vested in a single and usually hereditary figure, such as a king, and whose powers can vary from those of an absolute despot to those of a figurehead

    Add to this the simple fact everyone has the same status, ie.... starving. and you have the only functioning example of marxism in the known universe.
    Last edited by Dutch; 01-21-11 at 06:22 PM.
    He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. ~ Winston Churchill

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    Re: National Socialism and Communism AREN'T necessarily bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    What war? They couldn't produce and distribute goods and services despite having tons of natural resources. That's pretty much all marx had mind.
    The Cold War...
    Au contraire, North korea is a communist monarchy. Here's how you can tell;
    The official government classification is a Jeuche Republic with a single party system. The country has a leader worship state religion and his policies are more dictatorial than they are communistic. If it was true communism you would see the government handing money out to the citizens, not taking it all while they starve. North Korea is not a proper depiction of communism. However, it is a good depiction of how there is still massive evils in this world.
    Add to this the simple fact everyone has the same status, ie.... starving. and you have the only functioning example of marxism in the known universe.
    China is also a single party communist nation. Right now it has a growing economy (which will burst as it is a bubble). Communism is not good for economic growth and economic freedom. However, communism in it's purest form uncorrupted by human nature is somewhat of a utopia where everyone has equal income and there is no poverty and hunger. This is unrealistic, but that's what pure communism is and desires to achieve.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

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