Which of these things would improve education in the United States?

Layla_Z said:

I offer some proof of my facts you offer none. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. It's so handy to just refuse to believe evidence when it disproves your point. You're not sorry you called me idiotic but you should be sorry for your narrowminded childish behavior. It seems the best you can do is stick your fingers in your ears and say, " la, la, la, not listening!"

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It really is pretty silly watching the debate between you two, and for one of you to keep being so rude, and not offering actual counter arguments, is certainly telling.

American said:

Thanks for proving we don't need unions. Pass this info along to haymarket.

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Unions ARE necessary unless you want the poor working conditions of the Industrial Revolution to happen again...
I think that you actually want them to have less power and be smaller and more regulated.

haymarket said:

There is a good reason why I do not know the details of this incident.
YOU, who brought it up, failed to provide the relevant information to make the determination that it was the unions fault.
Blame your self for your own failings and shortcomings.

And if you cannot see the inherent contradiction in your own post when it is plainly show to you, you really have problems in the area of comprehension.

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there was no contradiction. you just don't know WTF you are talking about and jumped to an incorrect conclusion...as usual

Bodhisattva said:

Unions ARE necessary unless you want the poor working conditions of the Industrial Revolution to happen again...
I think that you actually want them to have less power and be smaller and more regulated.

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I taught in public schools for 11 years. was FORCED to be a union member for 11 years. the union never did one damn thing to help me. all it did was take their damn monthly due from my paycheck in order to finance a political agenda with which I disagreed.

OscarB63 said:

I taught in public schools for 11 years. was FORCED to be a union member for 11 years. the union never did one damn thing to help me. all it did was take their damn monthly due from my paycheck in order to finance a political agenda with which I disagreed.

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it's a shame you belonged to a bad union. many people appreciate what their does for them.

Bodhisattva said:

Unions ARE necessary unless you want the poor working conditions of the Industrial Revolution to happen again...

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Oh give me a freaking break. 89% of Americans are not members of unions, yet no one lives in those kind of conditions. If you hadn't noticed, the US economy has developed a bit in the last 100 years. No one is going to exploit you, least of all a government employer that doesn't give a **** about making money.

Bodhisattva said:

I think that you actually want them to have less power and be smaller and more regulated.

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I can't speak for American, but *I* sure as hell want them to have less power and be more regulated.

Unions (especially public unions) are a disgusting affront to the way an economy should operate in this day and age. They force the taxpayers to overpay for public services, and advocate policies that run the country into the ground so that their members can prosper. I am ashamed that the Democratic Party, of which I am a member, has such a dysfunctional relationship with these special interest groups.

Kandahar said:

Those options are nice for wealthy yuppies, but not always possible for poor minorities living in inner cities and attending failing schools.

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Home school can be done by less wealthy folks. But that is besides the point. No one has the right to everything possible. Public school is the option for those who can't do anything else. So, work to make it better.

In many cities/states, the unions can and will fight tooth and nail against every dismissal of every teacher, no matter how much documentation there is or how valid the reason for the termination. It was like that here in DC prior to Michelle Rhee's tenure. It's still nearly impossible in New York City, despite having a progressive superintendent dedicated to education reform.

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So, that's their role. But, a process is in place inwhich to one can be dismissed. All anyone has to do is follow the process. Like any other union, it is their job to fight for the teacher. Accept it. But don't lose sight of the fact that the process still exists to get rid of poor teachers.

Let me throw something else in here if I may as well. Teachers are not in abundance. There are places that simply can't get teachers. In some cases you might serve students betteer to work to improve the teacher than to seek dismissal. there are process for that as well.

Kandahar said:

There are lots of proposals for education reform in the US, not all of which can work together. What do you think are the most important things that can be done to improve education?

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In terms of teacher pay, I happen to believe (generally speaking) that public school teachers are overpaid and private school teachers are adequately and/or underpaid. This is purely a generalization.

I do get tired of people (like the one acceptance speaker at the Golden Globes) promoting the greatness of public school teachers without even considering the private school teachers. If you're a private school teacher, you're often paid a fraction of the salary of a public teacher while maintaining a heavier workload and accountability factor. Teaching is a noble profession, but private school teachers are far more noble in their endeavors.

ElijahGalt said:

In terms of teacher pay, I happen to believe (generally speaking) that public school teachers are overpaid and private school teachers are adequately and/or underpaid. This is purely a generalization.

I do get tired of people (like the one acceptance speaker at the Golden Globes) promoting the greatness of public school teachers without even considering the private school teachers. If you're a private school teacher, you're often paid a fraction of the salary of a public teacher while maintaining a heavier workload and accountability factor. Teaching is a noble profession, but private school teachers are far more noble in their endeavors.

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That too depends on the school, but yes, there are a lot of under paid private school teachers. However, while pay is a cncern, it is not the top issue among teachers. I believe that respect would rate higher.

haymarket said:

Why don't you all bestow your insight and wisdom upon us Oh Learned One?

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Exactly, you can't even provide a counter arguement.

We don't need to weaken Unions we need to eliminate them all together and make employment 100% dependent on results.

The old saying the those who do and those who can't teach, has its basis in fact.

There are some wonderful teachers out there but they are hard to find these days.

Because of Unions and Liberals, in the last 30 years California has gone from #1 in Education to #49 just ahead of Mississippi.

Councilman said:

We don't need to weaken Unions we need to eliminate them all together and make employment 100% dependent on results.

The old saying the those who do and those who can't teach, has its basis in fact.

There are some wonderful teachers out there but they are hard to find these days.

Because of Unions and Liberals, in the last 30 years California has gone from #1 in Education to #49 just ahead of Mississippi.

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Oh lord where to begin.

Aince when has employment ever been completely dependent on results? And what would be the results? And isn't Mississippi a conservative state?

:slapme:

Why is it that certain things evoke a kind of Pavlovian response in so many people? Mention the word "union", and they immediately think "evil".

Personally, I wouldn't enter the door of the modern classroom without the protection of a union, and I'll tell you why: All it takes is one little tart to point her finger and say, "he touched me", and your career and any savings you might have are immediately in jeopardy. the same if a student falls over his own feet and cracks his head. You don't have to have done more than piss off a student or parent, and you can be in court fighting for your credential and your freedom. Now, you do have the option of an overworked public defender, of course, if you're brave enough. You aren't going to get much support from the school, as the officials thereof are more interested in their own skins. You do have the option of spending a few tens of thousands on your own defense. Or, you can get the backing of the union, and get a real defense without draining your savings.

But, then, you have to belong to one of those evil unions.

Kandahar said:

Oh give me a freaking break. 89% of Americans are not members of unions, yet no one lives in those kind of conditions. If you hadn't noticed, the US economy has developed a bit in the last 100 years. No one is going to exploit you, least of all a government employer that doesn't give a **** about making money.



I can't speak for American, but *I* sure as hell want them to have less power and be more regulated.

Unions (especially public unions) are a disgusting affront to the way an economy should operate in this day and age. They force the taxpayers to overpay for public services, and advocate policies that run the country into the ground so that their members can prosper. I am ashamed that the Democratic Party, of which I am a member, has such a dysfunctional relationship with these special interest groups.

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Are you going to debate this time or run away like last time?

Kandahar said:

Oh give me a freaking break. 89% of Americans are not members of unions, yet no one lives in those kind of conditions. If you hadn't noticed, the US economy has developed a bit in the last 100 years. No one is going to exploit you, least of all a government employer that doesn't give a **** about making money.

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If you don't think a teacher can be exploited you have never been a non-tenured teacher. I've seen good teachers fired because they ticked off the wrong school board member. A non-tenured teacher can be fired for any reason(except race, religion, or gender) with no warning and no documentation of a problem. I've seen teachers who got great evaluations from the principal(their direct supervisor who sees them on a daily basis) only to be fired by the school board. I'm not a member of a union but I'm glad someone is out there trying to make sure teachers are treated fairly.

Councilman said:

We don't need to weaken Unions we need to eliminate them all together and make employment 100% dependent on results.

The old saying the those who do and those who can't teach, has its basis in fact.

There are some wonderful teachers out there but they are hard to find these days.

Because of Unions and Liberals, in the last 30 years California has gone from #1 in Education to #49 just ahead of Mississippi.

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What results do you want to base employment on? Be specific.

That saying has no basis in fact. Teaching is a skill all its own. Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you can teach it.

Layla_Z said:

If you don't think a teacher can be exploited you have never been a non-tenured teacher. I've seen good teachers fired because they ticked off the wrong school board member. A non-tenured teacher can be fired for any reason(except race, religion, or gender) with no warning and no documentation of a problem.

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OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.

Layla_Z said:

I've seen teachers who got great evaluations from the principal(their direct supervisor who sees them on a daily basis) only to be fired by the school board. I'm not a member of a union but I'm glad someone is out there trying to make sure teachers are treated fairly.

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At the expense of students.

Kandahar said:

OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.



At the expense of students.

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That is not true of any job. At most jobs a boss has to document issues and give the employee time to "fix" the problem. There is a human resources department that oversees the whole thing. That is not true for a non-tenured teacher.

Treating teachers fairly is in the best interest of the students because it keeps good teachers in the classroom.

Kandahar said:

OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.

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Actually, there is a pretty good reason for that. The idea is that someone who wants to be a teacher is dedicated to the subject they teach. Given the amount of training required and relatively low salaries that accompany most teaching posts, there's still good reason to think that's the case. Teachers are supposed to be dedicated to truth, and as new truths arise in their field of study, or old ones become politically uncomfortable, they're supposed to teach those anyway, because education is about the truth.

Administrators, on the other hand, don't conform to those conditions. They can be prone to act according to the dictates of politics. So, for instance, when a high school biology teacher in the 1920s starts teaching evolution rather than creation, tenure is supposed to prevent him getting fired. Or when a school board wants to eliminate the Illiad from the curriculum because it's too violent, or the Epic of Gilgamesh because it's too erotic, or the Grapes of Wrath because it's too gritty, the teachers are supposed to be able to tell them to kiss off. When they want to stop teaching multiplication tables because there are calculators now and it's a waste of time and money, the teachers are (again) supposed to be able to tell them no without fear of retribution.

I'll be the first to admit that, in practice, in our public schools, this works less well than it should. But that's the theory, and if you do away with tenure, education ends up in the hands of politicians.

Kandahar said:

OK, but that's true of ANY job. Pissing off your boss is generally not conducive to your continued employment; I don't see any reason teachers need to be a special exception to that.



At the expense of students.

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You make a leap. No one has argued at the expense of the children. Nor would anyone.

Boo Radley said:

You make a leap. No one has argued at the expense of the children. Nor would anyone.

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Except, perhaps, as a part of that Pavlovian response I just mentioned.

Unions bad, unions liberal, liberal bad, so unions bad.

School boards good, school boards elected, school boards conservative, conservative good, so school boards good.

Ug.

Dittohead not! said:

Except, perhaps, as a part of that Pavlovian response I just mentioned.

Unions bad, unions liberal, liberal bad, so unions bad.

School boards good, school boards elected, school boards conservative, conservative good, so school boards good.

Ug.

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Sad isn't it.

haymarket said:

You missed the most important two IF you want to catch up with other nations on international standardized test scores:

1- a national educational curriculum where the entire USA learns the same things from the same books and materials and takes the same tests which measure what is actually learned in ever classroom in America. Until you do that, you are NOT measuring what is actually taught in classrooms or learned in classrooms since we have thousands upon thousands of different school systems devoid of uniformity in curriculum which many other nations have notably Japan.

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America is a large country and is not bound by Tribal bonds nor is largely uniform in culture or history. I personally don't think the Federal Government is capable nor has a Constitutional mandate to do so. And it would more likely cause great tension in the country making the Core Curriculum even more political than it exists as now.

2- American education is a factory system where each raw material progresses down an assembly line at the same pace. That must be done away with. Teach everyone the concept of one plus one is two. Those that master it move on. Those who do not go to another teacher for another approach until they do master it before moving on. Do that with everything you teach and some kids will graduate in eight year, some in twelve years, and some in even longer periods of time. It will cost Xdollars to educate some, 1.5Xdollars to educate others and 3X dollars to educate some.

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I agree with this fully. Better yet we can have charter schools and get rid of government schools and only have the State governments have an oversight capacity with respect to the Core curriculum

Some additonial ideas:

Get rid of ScanTron tests. Hardly any Subject can be effictivly tested with that. Nothing else shows mastery of a subject than fill in the blank tests, unless you count the dreaded essay.

Get rid of the students that just don't want to be in school after the primary grades. Allow them to get employable job skills such as Vocational Education this would include some specilaized occupatins perhaps Dental Assitant, or even Para-Legal not just the Shop guys and their respective Jobs. Europe has a two tier system where academic and pratical types are steared to. I just say make it an option.

Get rid of the PTA and have a PEA (Parental Education Association) which is just parents banding together for mutual support for assitance in healping their kids with schoolwork. The PTA is just a tool for the Teacher's Unions and I pretty much figured that out in grade (primary) School.

Have a Maximum Limit for the number of students for schools. There should be no Mega Schools this limits opertunity for students if the limit of the number of students were 250 for highschools insted of 1000+. Only so many can be on on Speach/Debate, Yearbook, Student Paper, and other such options.

Have some specialits schools that focus on some category Like the Fine Arts, Socal Sciences, the "Hard" Sciences etc. which students can take for three classes on a Semester basis (in place of the Vocational Schooling option)

Eliminate HS all together have them go to a Community College instead, having people of diffrent age sets will at least show the importace of the subject taught and is not just annother course for graduation.

An example why the ScanTron test encourages a big FAIL:

"The Answer is NOT always C" by Jeff Rosenberg on CollegeHumor